23 inch scale

Rick Abbott · Post by **Rick Abbott** » 3 Nov 2007 6:25 am

I am happy to say that yesterday I was able to play my '66-67 ShoBud rack and barrel model for the first time. I have been in agony trying to make it adjust to playing in-tune and with pedal action that I can live with.

Yes I know now what "Bud" tone is

But this is really harmonically diferent. The only thing that I can figure is the 23 inch scale length is a big part of the soft and very sweet tone. I have only ever played Carter guitars the last five or 6 years. They all sounded great, but not like this.

Am I having auditory hallucinations from the overwhelming joy of havinf a functioning steel, or am I hearing something you've hallucinated too?

Are there other PSG's with that short scale?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 3 Nov 2007 6:29 am

I am unaware that Sho~Bud built anything other than 24" scale guitars.

Rick Abbott · Post by **Rick Abbott** » 3 Nov 2007 6:39 am

Erv, this one is 23" I just checked it again. I had never seen such a thing.

The ShoBud folks on the Forum including Mr. Coop lead me to believe that it is a late '66 Crossover, made before the deal with Baldwin. The changer is likely a one-off model. It is single R/L like the others.

Rick Abbott · Post by **Rick Abbott** » 3 Nov 2007 3:49 pm

Any Crossover players out there with a tape-rule? Maybe all the crossovers are 23" scale

Michael Hardee · Post by **Michael Hardee** » 3 Nov 2007 5:54 pm

Weren't some of the early Emmons PP's built with a 22 1/2" scale?

Rick Abbott · Post by **Rick Abbott** » 3 Nov 2007 6:18 pm

I've not heard of that, but then again I thought all PSG's were 24" or a bit longer.

Michael Hardee · Post by **Michael Hardee** » 3 Nov 2007 6:27 pm

Rick, I could have sworn that I remembered receiving a catalog from Emmons around 1970 where 22 1/2" scale was offered as an option.

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 3 Nov 2007 9:39 pm

I have 1964 Emmons guitars and they are 24 1/4".

I have a Sho-bud that was converted to 24 inches in 1959 but started life as 25.

I have had a 25 inch Bigsby, and now Bigsby necks that are the 24 plus inches -- what occurs when 25 inches shrinks in casting and a 25 inch scale neck is used as the basis for a pattern.

I have heard stories about a 22 inch Sho-bud scale, but, as John Dean said in Watergate hearings, "I can neither confirm, nor deny."

Patrick Laffrat · Post by **Patrick Laffrat** » 4 Nov 2007 1:17 am

I bought this guitar in 1976 in Germany, in a music shop of Karlsruhe where there are some US Army troops.
It has a Push Pull system and has a 23 inches scale. It was a C6 5+2. I have transformed it to a E9 3+4.
I don't know the brand of this guitar. Perhaps somebody can help me to discover the origin of this guitar.

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 4 Nov 2007 11:52 am

Just eyeballing it, that twelfth fret appears to be closer to the nut than the bridge.

Rick Abbott · Post by **Rick Abbott** » 4 Nov 2007 1:53 pm

The Crossover or the unidentified one? the ShoBud is 11-1/2" from either end.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 4 Nov 2007 2:03 pm

This Baldwin Cross over is a 23" scale, from the factory, the changer IS original. This guitar is authentic in every way. There were about 20 built this way in the beginning. David Jackson changed his design to the standard finger model because of , tone, string breakage and cost.
This guitar original and rare? YOU BET IT IS!
Some of you sharp guys that collect original literature will notice that THIS is the guitar in the first printed promo literature. This is a very collectable guitar, not worth much to play, but very rare AND COLLECTABLE. For a while, the value may be low, but in the next 20 years, this could be a sleeper with great value to come.
Sho-Buds ONLY 23" scale. Another great David Jackson inovation, look what he is still doing today! This guys brain never sleeps.

Bobbe Seymour

Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 4 Nov 2007 2:12 pm

Patrick, I enjoyed your pictures of the "Push-Pull" changer, weirdest one I have ever seen , but I see how it works, very interesting!
Those boys across the pond never did do anything simply. I know, I have a V-12 BMW.
The first 7 MSAs were built using a very similar system, I still have one. (1963)

Bobbe

Rick Abbott · Post by **Rick Abbott** » 4 Nov 2007 2:36 pm

Bobbe,

Any idea who these guitars were built for? The serial number is M0 7035. Would I be stupid if I put an E-raise KL on it? I have that change on a pedal now and I hate it. I wouldn't want to harm it, but I dont have any other guitar to play.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 4 Nov 2007 9:43 pm

Rick, these guitars were built for music stores only. The ones that handled "Baldwin" products. They were just sold through the store.
Personally, I'd not add the lever, ever. Why add it? You can play with what's there, no one else will ever know, the only value your guitar has now is its originality and good condition. Don't throw that away just to have a knee lever on a guitar that really isn't that good to play anyway. Sustain on these guitars wasn't very good when new either, but it is the fore-runner to the Pro series. The "Pro series was Sho-Bud's most money making line ever. This was the start of the great things that were soon to come in the seventies.
David spent may nights without sleep on this guitar design, along with those to come a little later.

Bobbe

Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 4 Nov 2007 9:49 pm

Michael, no, all Emmons guitars had 24.25 scale.

(24 1/4") Or: Twenty four thousand, two hundred fifty thousandths, or two feet and a quarter of an inch, or: 1598432270.29 % of a metric yard. (Or possibly---------------- .

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 4 Nov 2007 11:48 pm

I think maybe the 23" (or 221/2") scale may have been on some of the Emmons non pedal "lap" steels. Can't remember for sure.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 5 Nov 2007 9:18 am

Hey Rick! Told ya! I'm glad you kept it. I woulda bought it, but I knew I was getting a 1959 Madison Permanent, and still have the Fingertip to do, so,,,,,
I woulda loved to have it, but I'm glad you're keepin' it original!

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 7 Nov 2007 9:09 am

John! Where did you get the "Madison" Sho-Bud?
Bobbe

Rick Abbott · Post by **Rick Abbott** » 7 Nov 2007 11:27 am

Bobbe, Anyone,

What are these switches function? One seems to shut off the C6 pickup and one makes the E9 neck sound thin and awful or just silent. I don't like 'em whatever they are.

John B. the rack is in and set for 2 C6 pulls, 5 and 6 pedal of course. I need to re-install the pedals, but the racks are really easy to set up for dedicated pedals for each neck. I was so green about the mechanics when I got it that I just flipped and pulled out the clutter

I feel much more confident now!

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 7 Nov 2007 2:01 pm

From Mr. John Coop. It's a Birdseye maple D-10 with black-painted necks. 6 pedals.

Rick Abbott · Post by **Rick Abbott** » 7 Nov 2007 2:15 pm

Pedals and rods in place, 6-pulls, 2-raises, 4-lowers and 18 lbs. heavier

Nah, only 3 or 4.

Thanks for the info, but does anyone know what the two switches are? I thought that they might be coil-tap or the like.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 7 Nov 2007 2:19 pm

Should be coil tap switches. Yer right! If they're not coil-tappin', they may be messed up. Or maybe the pickups are messed up. You'll have to experiment. Get out your VOM!

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 7 Nov 2007 4:33 pm

Here tis!

Rick Abbott · Post by **Rick Abbott** » 7 Nov 2007 5:32 pm

Man, that is some nice wood! Looks like a pull-release type changer? You say 1959? Bet she sings.

BTW the pickups seem to be 2-conductor on my X-over. These weirdo-switches make NO sense to me. I'm gonna start a new thread on them.