Why can't we buck the system?

Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 10 Mar 2005 12:31 am

This is really sort of a complex topic. Really its not so much about bucking the system as it is preserving a genre of music that has gotten swept away by a variety of things--cultural changes, economic and political changes, and the infiltration of a new music business model into Music City. Even religion can get tossed into the pot.

First of all, music changes all the time. You can look at any genre of music that was alive in 1950 and, if its still viable, it sure doesn't sound the same. Rock ain't about Chuck Berry and Little Richard anymore. Jazz has gone in a thousand directions. Pop bears no resemblance to the pop songs of the 50's. And, like it or not, country has taken a lot of different roads.

I must admit that I still hear an occasional current country song that I like. I think an element of traditional country will continue to surface--at least occasionally.

The whole music biz angle has been discussed, and those cards have been played, so I won't rehash that.

Getting back to my list of song themes not to use, mainly the drinking and cheating themes, I think there is a reason and its a cultural shift. For one thing, those themes offend Christian folks and they don't want to hear those subjects. The Bible belt listens to and buys country music. Second, media and the culture have created an ideal model that people are trying to live up to--being happy, successful, in good shape and healthy, in control of life, witty, friendly, honest, etc. These are all the marks of a successful life and Nashville wants to sell those themes. Thats how people want to see themselves reflected in songs.

When Gretchen Wilson sings "When I Think About Cheating" she never does, because the singer knows that life is better without it. Even having no love at home isn't considered an excuse anymore. Drinking can get in in certain cases, but mostly its used a social diversion theme, and never as a way to drown the endless pain and sorrow. Nashville doesn't think endorsing alcoholism is a good thing anymore. I doubt you will hear a song like "There Stands The Glass" these days. AJ's character in "Five O'Clock Somewhere" is going on a bender, but just for one day, and the song spends most of its time giving him a huge excuse to drink for one day. Thats a lot different than "Shes Acting Single, I'm Drinking Doubles" or "Still Doing Time" in that honky tonk prison.

Gene Watson's tune, "Farewell Party", which is about a guy who plans to commit suicide so he can keep his wife until the end of his life, would never be allowed on the airwaves as a new song these days. Its not acceptable thought or behavior in this brave new world. Yet, I bet it happens everyday. Its just that Nashville isn't into endorsing such behavior.

If we look, there are still lots of songs with "classic" music and melodies, but with a shift in values. In those cases, its not that the music has changed, just the approach to the topics. I'm neither for the shift or against it, but its a sign of the times. However, I think that some new songs could be written that incorporate both the older musical styles and a more positive spin on the trials of being human. Maybe that combination would really save modern country, or at least help to pull it back from oblivion.

Country music has always gone in cycles. When it gets too pop, somebody always comes around to remind us of the roots, whether its Waylon and Willie, Ricky Skaggs, or Randy Travis, George Strait and John Anderson.

On a grassroots level, all we can do is play what we think country ought to be and do our best. I think the older styles will come back to some degree. Whether it will become the center of country music or not is just speculation. I do know this. If the major labels could sell more records with Haggard and Jones type stuff than Shania Twain, they would do so in a heartbeat. I don't think they are tryin gto fore stuff down our throats as much as they are trying to give the masses what they want. I just think their compass is a little out of calibration at the moment.

Anyway, thats what is going through my brain tonight. [This message was edited by Al Carmichael on 08 April 2005 at 05:20 AM.]

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 10 Mar 2005 4:00 am

Interesting perspective Al.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 10 Mar 2005 6:48 am

Interesting post, Al. How about "The Other Woman", always a big hit at steel shows. Seems to me to be a big justification for adultery...[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 10 March 2005 at 06:50 AM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 10 Mar 2005 7:33 am

Al, a well-thought-out comment. I guess the issue for me is whether or not it's good that music be that censored. This is the 'happy talk' I was discussing in my earlier post. My take on this is that writing about reality in a song is not the same as 'endorsing' it. Were country music listeners less Christian 40 years ago? I don't think so. Did people excessively drink and take drugs less 40 years ago than now? I don't think so, in fact I think it's the other way around. If we want to deal with the problems, we need to be able to talk and sing about them also without recrimination. My view is that this is about 'political correctness' and external control of music. I think this is where Webb's coming from, and I agree with him.

Let me also say that I think young people see a hypocrisy in this 'happy talk'. I'm a college teacher, have been around college students a lot over the last 35 years, both as a student and a teacher. Why do you think young people have turned to the harder music? I believe because it speaks to the reality that they see. I know that when many of them hear what I call authentic country music, which talks about real peoples' lives, not the 'happy talk' version of it, they listen. Look at Johnny Cash and his American Recordings projects. He reached many younger people by talking real. Many people whined and complained about the reality in his lyrics (interestingly, from the 'left' this time, esp. Delia's Gone), but it holds up as good music. Johnny clearly had to 'buck the system' to do this project, and he had enough clout to get away with it. I suggest that music would be a lot more vital if up-and-coming artists could also speak their minds, without the 'happy talk' censorship. It really goes to the relevance of music as an art form at all. Again, just my opinion.

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 10 Mar 2005 8:29 am

Right on again, Al, I believe. It is a cyclic thing, I guess. The Moe and Joe Good Ol' Boys era swung things too far in the other direction where it encourged people to throw in the towel on responsibililty altogther.

The preacher part of me is all about encouraging the positive and challenging people to make right choices with their lives. But, too much of organized religion is just as guilty as the record industry of trying to snuff out the cold, hard realities of life.

Songs like, "I Think I'll Just Sit Here and Drink," if nothing else, make great sermon fodder for me. But, don't think for one minute that there aren't times when doing just that doesn't seem like the most viable solution for me at the moment for the way things are going. We all have those days and a song like that is a warm pat on the back for me when the chips are down; like saying, "We're all in this together, friend." It's not going to make me go get drunk, but in its own way it is like the proverbial shot of courage I need to help me stay focused when I am challenged by the hard realities of life.

But, it seems to me that what is going on is that many of us feel betrayed by an industry who has been consumed by its loss of identity and is forever trying to find a market with everybody but the very ones who brought them success in the first place. (IE. Tim McGraw doing the video with some hip-hopper) I know a hip hop producer who laughs at this. He sees it as a struggling country music industry grasping for straws, whoring itself out to a group of consumers who could not care less about country music and likely never will.

But, what if the industry has found its niche with the 20 to 34 year old girls? Let it do so. But, what about the rest of us? Certainly there is a market with us.

Most of my friends are at a stage in life where they have more money to spend on entertainment and more time to do it than when they were raising kids. But, they have a hard time relating to much of the music that is being put out there today. Maybe it's not really a matter of bucking the system as much as it is trying to get the system to realize there is another market out there--a market which it has abandoned--and that it might just be able to cash in on.

What if there was an adult-country syndicated radio format, an adult-country TV programming with a modern-day HeeHaw, Opry programming,etc. and record labels-even subsidiarys of the big ones-who promoted, distributed and marketed a more mature genre of country. I'm not talking about just rehashing the classics, although they should be included, but I'm talking about promoting new music that appeals to we, ahem, more mature citizens.

Think about it this way; I'm 50. Lord willing, I'll be buying new music for 40 more years if there is new music that I like. Quite honestly, the choices are few and far between. There is some fine jazz being released, still some good bluegrass here and there, but along with good country, the pickins' are getting slim. That WC Edgar who posted on the players thread this week has some of the most refreshing good country playing I've heard for some time.

There's some great stuff out there. I won't argue about that. I just fail to understand why I have to feel like I have to go on some kind of scavenger hunt to find it when there are so many who feel the same as I do about it.

I don't think we have to simply roll over and play dead. I want to believe that we can effect a change in the system--from within or from outside of it--that will give us what we long for.

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 10 Mar 2005 8:43 am

I was typing while you were posting and I missed it, Dave. Again, I concur. My son is a student where you teach and that certainly is his view of it.

The good side of it is that he has his sights set on a sociology doctorate because he sees the dishonesty in music as nothing more than a reflection of a head-in-the-sand view held by an entire generation of "feel gooders" who have fostered a lot of their own problems simply by denying them. He has a true passion to do his part to face our problems head-on.

In that, I suppose, we find the price we must pay if we are going to evoke any change in our industry.

Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 10 Mar 2005 10:03 am

Dave--I don't endorse the censoring. I'm just giving my view from my exposure to publishing in Nashville. If we want to promote the music we love, we just have to find an effective way to do it and make it part of the music scene. For now, that will have to be done outside the Nashville circle. We wouldn't be the first ones to go outside. Buck and Merle did it from the West Coast.

Here's another interesting thing I discovered. A lot of the people who worked behind the scenes in Nashville didn't listen to country except when it was part of their job. They were into rock, classic rock and alternative. They were all a lot younger than most of us. Now, they are guiding the ship.

Webb--I like what you are saying about the need for certain songs and viewpoints. I've always felt that way--let 'em put their cards on the table. This whole politically correct world has gotten a bit out of hand for me. When you listen to some of the things being said in rock and hip hop, its a wonder that anybody has any worries about what country artists are saying.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 10 Mar 2005 10:14 am

Yes, Webb, of course it requires sacrifice to do most anything useful. I agree also that many, many young people see this, and are willing to sacrifice to try to help, but many get frustrated if they feel the load is not distributed. As Al alludes to, music is a reflection of other things going on. This is why music and art are actually important. If it was just about simple mindless entertainment, I don't think it would have the 'stick in the craw' power that it does. Music/art is about people, not just technique/marketing/entertainment.

During WWII, there were posters/movies/ads, etc., that explained "Why We Fight". This is the same thing. Thankfully, we can 'fight' using words, not bullets, and we want to keep it that way. But the surest way to lose this is to suppress free thought. It doesn't matter if that suppression is at the point of a gun or at the point of a lawyer's pen. It's the latter I'm worried about in the music business.

Al, if your comment "I just think their compass is a little out of calibration at the moment" is true, we have nothing to worry about. My concern is that, if media moguls have the power to control a large segment of the population, then past trends may well disappear. I think there's an argument to be made for this point of view, although only time will tell for sure, but I think we can definitely influence the outcome. So, I think stirring up this precise pot may help either 1) redirect their compass or 2) wake people up. As always, IMO.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 10 Mar 2005 10:22 am

Al, I was typing while you posted. I agree completely. Nothing wrong at all for this to come from somewhere besides Nashville. As long as it comes from somewhere.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 10 Mar 2005 10:24 am

This thread is entirely too civil, what with everybody agreeing with everybody else... Could somebody please mix it up a little, like they do in the real world? Thanks a million,

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 10 Mar 2005 10:36 am

Actually, Jim, there are shades of difference in what we're saying on several things, but we're just being civil about it. What a concept! Hey, this isn't the Jerry Springer show. Is that 'the real world'?

But seriously, I think most of us on this thread are pretty frustrated with the 'music biz at large', that's what's goin' on here. Why should we fight with each other? We're just honing our arguments.

Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 10 Mar 2005 1:35 pm

Dave--Good point there. We don't have to be in 100% agreement about everything. How boring would that be, LOL? I think a lot of us share this gut feeling that we are being somehow shortchanged by the current change in country.

It would be real easy to say to me, "Listen, old man. The music world has just passed you by--get over it." Maybe thats valid, but I began listening to music in the 50's as a kid and the changes didn't seem to bother me as I got older. When things changed, I enjoyed a lot of the changes and it kept things fresh. Its just been lately that I feel like the music doesn't speak to me much anymore--I can almost smell the demographic marketing and cunning written into a lot of the tunes. Frankly, it insults my intelligence and my being.

At the same time, I still love and crave great music. Its always been a huge part of my life.

Anyway, I am at a loss as to what to do. I'm 53 and I still make my living playing music full time. Right now, I have this burning desire to put a classic country band together and I think the right pickers are out there, since there used to be a ton of us all working nightclubs in southeast Michigan.

The problem is that all the old clubs are gone. There are two country bars left and both have house bands. Especially, I'm asking Webb--how can I market what I want to do today? How did you do it? In the old days, if you had a good band, you could get work all over. Do I have to hit the summer festival circuit? Talk a club owner into doing a special classic country night somewhere? I'm open to all ideas and suggestions. I can't get anybody on board without a plan that has some sure rewards.

If I'm gonna buck the system, I need a band and places to play. After that, doing CD's makes sense, but not before. I think if I could get it up and running, the momentum might carry us far. If nothing else, I'll see how many classic country fans are really out there, won't I? Gosh, maybe I'll change my name to Buck! Seriously, if you have any ideas--anybody--please share them with me.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 10 Mar 2005 2:26 pm

Well since marketing is my specialty, I have a few ideas. Key is building a fan base. The internet gives all sorts of ways to do this. I almost would develop an Internet presense first. You don't have to wait to find a club that will have you: you can create your own club. Two ways: find a bar that caters to a different type of music but has all the stuff you need: sound system, license to perform live music, etc but has a slow night: maybe weds. Offer to rent the space from him for the night. Use your email mailing list that you have built up to fill the place. Once the bar owner sees the business you can draw, you can establish a more perminant presence. All the bar owner needs to be convince of is that he can make money by having your band. You could also rent out your own hall not associated with a bar: local gym, or other large space. By some cheap radio spots to promote it. But email marketing is probably going to be your key. You might be able to presell the concert as well through a fan base discount program.

Build relationships iwth the local Public radio outlets. This is exactly how Oh Brother Where art Though was marketed. Local radio and tv stations are always looking for entertainment. What about public access.

Play as many places for free you can to build your email list and fan base: supermarket openings, etc. Make an arrangement with a hotel to rent out their faciliities and sponsor a weekend festival. Joe Val was packed. It is really not that difficult to do if you think the audience is there. In fact it is a good business opportunity for someone.

The downside is that you find out the audience is not there and you lose your shirt. You might have more sympathy for club owners, promoters, and music marketers once you've walked in their shoes.

It is really not that difficult to do. I put on a 3 day conferance once. Cost me about $100k to book all the hotels, pay for everything,etc. I put my house on the line to do it. A lot of sleepless nights but I finally turned a small profit. It can be done.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 10 Mar 2005 2:32 pm

As far as bucking the Nashville system, you can forget that however. Tbone Burnett did a fantastic job of promoting the artists of Brother Where Art Thou, and wasnt' able to buck the system. He went around the system temporarily for a particular project but didn't make a dent in the current market. If you are expecting to be embraced by Nashville or any other major music center, you are setting yourself up for heart ache and disappointment. You need to carve your niche and build from there. That other train has left the station.[This message was edited by Bill McCloskey on 10 March 2005 at 02:32 PM.][This message was edited by Bill McCloskey on 10 March 2005 at 02:35 PM.]

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 10 Mar 2005 3:08 pm

A couple of days ago (?) I caught the Oprah show and I believe they were at Ft Campbell, Ky. Anyway there were 640 (?) expectant dependents in the audience; Oprah and certain generous companies (like Johnson and Johnson, Krako (?) ) gave each attendee some real good gifts. Then they were entertained by Kenny C. and Martina M. the camera panned the audience and they were so happy they had tears streaming down their cheeks, God bless them. So there is a young audience out there. If I was a million years younger I would be trying to get gigs at military bases if it wasn't too far; seems to me that a lot of us military types have always liked country.

Rich Weiss · Post by **Rich Weiss** » 10 Mar 2005 5:32 pm

I've been writing some country songs lately, and I made the mistake of writing the first few in the traditional AABA structure. And to make it worse, they were shuffles.

After listening to the top 10 country songs over the past month I've realized that they've totally changed the format. They now employ a verse/chorus/verse/chorus/c-section/chorus. In other words, every song must have the catchy chorus, in order to make it to modern-country radio. It's all about the chorus. I mean, on EVERY SONG. It sure didn't used to be this way.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Mar 2005 2:46 am

and to add to this..some of the songs make no sense and are horrible..It's really hard to beleieve that some of these so-called Stars get any Airplay at all..which brings us back to.."it's the Artist Hype" not necessarily the song or music..

Trace Adkins has a tune which they play about his job, he has a guitar and sings Country music songs..

I wrote this song when I was 8...

This is not in my opinion a song that should be even considered for radio play or recording..Sorry Trace..

And I Like Trace Adkins !

The current lineup of singers so called Stars have somehow earned a spot in the 38 minute music lineup for each radio show hour..These radio producers are gonna play songs by this selected group regardless if it is worthwhile music or not. There is no room in the lineup for any new singer or songs..

I suspect most of the show jocks are not even listening..and I sight a perfect example, now done on almost all stations that play the Country top 40...

Brad Paisley..Mudd on the Tires..I happen to really Like Brads tunes and CD's..I guess so do many..

The highlight of this song is Brads Guitar solo at the end of the tune..the whole song builds up to this..but what do the jocks do ? They cut it off and talk over it ...!

As our beloved James Carville would say..

"It's a Quagmy-ya for sure"...

t

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 11 Mar 2005 7:44 am

Hey Web, interesting thread with lots of interesting comments. You mentioned gospel in your orginal post so I think this will tie in. I attend a Southern Baptist Church in East Texas. This church was organized 8 years ago by a preacher who felt there was a need for a laid back church atmosphere because this area is blessed with Lake Fork Reservoir which is a really big bass lake. He felt the area needed a place where fishing families could feel comfortable in jeans or even shorts while on a weekend fishing trip. Well, it started with 8 people 8 yrs ago and the member ship is now around 1300 and we are in our 3rd building. Now the part that makes this fit your post.We play traditional old gospel and country gospel with a twist. We use piano and organ ("the only scriptural instruments as I was told one time), bass guitar, rythmn guitar, harmonica, electric keyboard, dobro, drums and I sometime get to double on steel and lead guitar. The majority of the membership are retired. I guess a lot of people chose to retire near the lake. We have folks from all walks of life and usually the only men with ties on are older retired pastors or visitors. There has been talk of changing to some "praise" music or more modern "Christian" music, but that gets quiet when people start saying "it ain't broke, don't fix it" We are the only church with miles of here that do it this way and we are extremely proud of it. I play in a band that does old Hinson and Goodman gospel music and some newer Classic country sounding Gospel. We are having a blast and everybody that hears us really like it.

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 12 Mar 2005 4:47 am

Tony,
I agree Trace's new single doesn't do it for me either. Seems like alot of the artist we like will release a song or two we don't care for lyrically. I also love it when the DJ cuts off the ending of a song like Paisley & Womack or hums through it!

Perhaps if Womack, Chestnut, Diffie etc. sold CD's like Shania, Chesney & Rascal Flatts we could buck the system.

People of all ages are buying what they can relate to and like sooooo that's why they are at the top.

Henry Nagle · Post by **Henry Nagle** » 18 Mar 2005 10:38 pm

I think people buy what they're told to buy. If all you hear is mediocrity, then you'll just choose the best of the mediocre. If you're only exposure to music is modern country or rock radio, then you won't even know of all the great new and old music that is available. Most people don't put a lot of effort into seeking out new things to listen to. They'll buy the same empty garbage they hear in thier office all week long. Until the average citizen becomes a more motivated listener, companies like Clear Channel will be able to effectively choose what records sell.
There are exceptions to every rule (and opinion) and subjectivity legitimizes even the poorest taste.

I think what some of us are trying to say is:

"Dammitt! Merle is still miles ahead of these jokers and they wont play him on the radio."

I picked up one of his newer albums today and the lyrics were so good that I nearly cried. Perfect balance of toughness and vulnerability. No cookie cutters. Just sincerity and intelligence.
If they played stuff like this on the radio I wouldn't have to spend money on cd's.

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 19 Mar 2005 4:48 am

I don't think people buy what they're told to. I buy what I like!

Henry Nagle · Post by **Henry Nagle** » 19 Mar 2005 10:10 am

Power, sister!!! Your Discerning and critical ear will bring the corporate dollar mongers to their knees!

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 19 Mar 2005 2:05 pm

Theresa, I think the point is that you buy whatever you like, from the range of options made available to you to hear and to purchase. You don't get to buy what you might prefer to buy if the corporations refuse to make it and don't make it available for sale.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Mar 2005 3:19 pm

If you're only exposure to music is modern country or rock radio, then you won't even know of all the great new and old music that is available.

I think that young people today are exposed to music on TV, video and internet more than on the radio. Radio isn't a big part of most people's lives. It's background music in the car if a homebrew CD or the iPod isn't playing.

There seems to be as many classic country and classic rock stations as there are "top 40".

Henry Nagle · Post by **Henry Nagle** » 19 Mar 2005 5:41 pm

b0b.... If there is such thing as a classic country station in this county, please let me know! Or are you refering to internet radio?[This message was edited by Henry Nagle on 19 March 2005 at 05:42 PM.]