Bob Carlucci wrote:oh boy... The "tuning procedure" in my day was to say to the lead guitarist-"gimmee an E"...
1-tune both e's up-
2-tune all other strings to the E;s by ear
3- tune the pedals/knee levers up, by ear...
done, in tune... You guys really are overthinking this.
Listen to the great players from 50-60 years ago.. Always in tune, probably tuned to a piano, guitar, or even a damn pitch pipe, and the term "cabinet drop" was unknown.... too much tech these days, has everyone relying on little magic boxes, instead of their God given senses.... bob
Bob, well said.
Electronic tuners only give a starting point, not an end point.. God gave us ears, use them.
Also well said, Bill, start with an "E" and sweeten from there.
Although the tuning problems on the E9 are often similar, there is also the variability of different guitars, changers, and different under carriage setups.
I tune with a system very similar to Larry’s. I like it because it takes your own instrument’s character into consideration - just like tuning by ear does.
One thing that isn’t mentioned in the “tune by ear” doctrine is the irritation factor. Not only is it difficult to do on a busy stage clamoring with all kinds of setup noise, including others tuning by ear, but tuning a pedal steel significantly adds further to the annoying racket going on all around. I am eternally grateful for the development of accurate electronic tuners.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 16 Apr 2024 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
I think people knew what cabinet drop was the very first moment they heard their E string go flat when they stepped on the the AB pedals.
Funny, this forum is full of brilliant experienced builders and repair mechanics who use precision tools and take into account measurements to within thousands of an inch, all to make sure the pedal steel guitar functions at something close to reliable perfection. But when it comes to tuning, hey, just wing it.
Wanting the best tone from my steel, (and good tuning = good tone), I fought the cabinet drop issue for years. So I purchased raise & lower compensator parts and installed them. They work, but,,,, I’m always checking them, spending way too much time tweaking and tuning. Btw,,,After all the wasted effort and expense, the guitar or bass player will have a slight tuning issue going on and make me sound out of tune anyway.
any comments on Emmons Lg111 or Zum anti detuner ? I havent heard complaints about them and wondered why every guitar company didn't incorporate something like this in all their guitars. Its my understanding they are pretty much set it and forget it with very little attention needed to adjust the detuning portion.
Duane Dunard wrote:Wanting the best tone from my steel, (and good tuning = good tone), I fought the cabinet drop issue for years. So I purchased raise & lower compensator parts and installed them. They work, but,,,, I’m always checking them, spending way too much time tweaking and tuning. Btw,,,After all the wasted effort and expense, the guitar or bass player will have a slight tuning issue going on and make me sound out of tune anyway.
I have a bit of a lazy streak so I usually just tune while holding the B pedal down. This gives me a middle-ground compensation for any cabinet drop, between pedals up and pedals down. My routine is something like this:
- With B pedal down, I tune the E's, B's, and A's (and D if I had one) to 440, G#'s and D# to -14 cents, F#'s to -7 cents.
- With only A pedal down, I tune C#'s to -14 cents.
- C pedal: C# and F# both to -14 cents.
- E lower KL: D#'s to -14 cents.
- E raise KL: F to about -25 cents.
- Check and adjust by ear if necessary. My first check is usually the open 6th G# against the A pedal C# 5th string. I don't like to hear beats there.
This gets me close enough, and it's quick. The basic premise is to tune for average cabinet drop with roots and fifths straight up, major thirds at about -14 cents, and the pesky open F#'s at halfway between straight up and -14.
All that said, I could just use an A or E tuning fork and do the rest by ear like I did before tuners. But as Fred mentioned, it was sometimes difficult when you didn't want to annoy the audience or when the venue was too noisy. (I remember seeing at least one steel player tuning with headphones on back then.)
I don't know about you guys, but no one in our band is allowed to live tune on stage. Everyone has a tuning meter which we check with each other on a monthly basis. Live tuning in stage is unprofessional and annoying to the audience.
Not going to argue with any of our friends here, but lets be realistic... The pedal steel is "bending" the cabinet and frame ever so slightly every time a pedal or lever is pushed... You ARE going to have a drop of a few cents on other strings.. Get a good enough meter and you might even see it on all strings.. It was always there,,, however, steel players adjusted to it by ear, and by proper bar placement, vibrato technique all learned by time and experience.. This has been going on for I dunno, 65 or so years??.. Again, the great steel players of yesteryear tuned to a pitch pipe, maybe a piano until electronic tuners came into wide use,, They sounded great, In tune, sweet as honey .. They compensated for tuning issues in their instruments the way musicians throughout history have done it. By training their ears and hands.
Way too much reliance on gadgetry these days. Cabinet drop has been around for as long as pedal steels have been around, some worse than others.. I dunno, if we are really all that worried about it, maybe everyone should play old Fender cable jobs.. They say they don't have as much of the dreaded "cabinet drop". I have had a bunch of them, and to my ears they were no better or worse than the brand new pedal steels i had right alongside them. I could sound equally as awful on either...
I never thought much about cabinet drop, until one day I read about it, got a strobe, and saw it for myself. Know what I did? Rather than sweat over it, I forgot about it as quickly as I learned about it. Here's the advice of an old journeyman honky tonk musician- Tune your guitar up, play it with heart and with good proper technique, and with a good ear..
It will sound wonderful, and not one soul will ever know its going 2 or 3 cents flat whenever you hit the pedals, I promise... You guys are thinking too much. Did that for too long, it gets you in trouble, messes with your head.
You play a wonderful musical instrument, enjoy it, make great music for all to enjoy along with you,and don't think too much... Just play..... bob
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......
I keep a TU-12 in my chain but its only purpose is to allow me to check the overall pitch of my necks. Florida weather along with A/C (and ceiling-fans) can cause things to detune.
I stress, though, that this is a 'once a week' check on average. My ear tells me things aren't quite right; the TU-12 confirms that everything's dropped a few cents.
Relative-tuning, though, I do by ear. I like matching t5he 1 and 5 so it sounds sweet and beatless. The only thing that plagues me is the 6th string B pedal raise; on my guitar, I swear that moves of its own volition and requires an occasional tweak.
I use my ears, though, not the tuner.
When I first started as a pro in '59, back 'before the old King died', we'd get a note from the piano. Good or bad, that was the Golden Rule back, admittedly, before I even knew what a steel guitar was.
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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I previously posted the first two steps of Larry Bell’s tuning method, since they seemed most relevant to the OP's question about “cabinet drop”:
1. Push your A and B pedals and release a few times, then HOLD THE A & B PEDALS DOWN (ENGAGED).
Tune the E notes to be STRAIGHT UP (0 deflection) WITH THE A and B PEDALS ENGAGED
2. Release your A and B pedals (NO PEDALS ENGAGED)
Check your E strings. They should be 4-8 cents sharp (441-442 on the Hertz scale)
Tune the B's the same offset as the E's; if the E's are 4 cents sharp, tune the B's 4 cents sharp
However, there is much more about tuning on his website. Larry posted the rest of the tuning process that he uses, and an extensive discussion of different methods of tuning a pedal steel at: http://www.larrybell.org/id32.htm
How well does Larry’s tuning process work?
For me, the “proof is in the pudding”, and Larry posts numerous sound clips of his playing both E9 and C6 (on 12 string “E9/B6 universal” setups.
Intonation:
IMHO, Larry is an excellent player with (to my ear) impeccable intonation; his playing and tone reminds me of Buddy Emmons.
Regarding compensators:
Larry was (and may still be) a huge Emmons push-pull guitar fan and I believe that many of the tunes posted were played on one of his push-pulls--which as you probably know, did not have compensators, etc...which means that he was able to get excellent intonation with just his tuning method and bar placement.
Henry Matthews wrote:Most people didn’t even know what cabinet drop was until electronic tuners came along. Don’t even worry about it, just tune and play.
Seems fairly easy to hear the drop it if your ear is developed?
Especially on the A-F lever 6th string.
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes
It was ever thus: that inversion (A pedal/F lever) is no place to linger for too long. You can learn to 'play' it in tune and, anyway, it's no worse than a bar-slant if you use more than two strings.
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig wrote:It was ever thus: that inversion (A pedal/F lever) is no place to linger for too long. You can learn to 'play' it in tune and, anyway, it's no worse than a bar-slant if you use more than two strings.
Unless you have compensators which are very useful on a universal tuning.
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes
Bob Carlucci wrote:oh boy... The "tuning procedure" in my day was to say to the lead guitarist-"gimmee an E"...
I remember that very well as I was the lead guitarist. I used an "A" 440 tuning fork and went from there. Worked well until we added a keyboard player then we asked him for the note.
As to using your ears, I really can't as I use hearing aids due to hearing loss from Iraq & other places. I really suffer with higher frequencies and I have to rely on an electronic tuner.
Tony
Newnan, GA
Too many guitars, not enough time to play
'72 Sho-Bud 6139, '71 Marlen 210
'78 Fender Stringmaster Quad black
PedalMaster D8
Bill Duncan wrote:I believe cabinet drop is caused by electronic tuners. Put the tuner away and balance by ear and cabinet drop goes away.
My beliefs too. Have never paid any attention to it. I use the SE9 on my Peterson tuner and then just tweak the 5th string pull because it seems a little off but it’s not cabinet drop, just the tuning setting on my tuner.
Henry Matthews
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.
