cabinet drop

[Karen Sarkisian]

What is considered excessive cabinet drop? My S10 G2 comes up 5 cents off on both E’s and 7th string F# w pedals down. I’d love be to hear what others do to get the guitar to sound more in tune. I have a Peterson tuner but when I use SE9 it still sounds out of tune. Is this an issue for other G2 players and if so what is your solution? Thanks!

[Dale Rivard]

Hi Karen, I have a D10 G2 & a S10 Discovery. I've never checked the cabinet drop on either with a tuner but I don't think 5 cents is excessive. Here's my take on it: Every pedal steel is different & 1 tuning chart does not fit all. I believe every player should learn to tune by ear & fine tune the guitar to itself. And, it doesn't matter what tuning method you use: JI, Meantone, ET, intervals & chords should blend within the instrument, but then you must manipulate your bar to find the center of pitch with the other instruments. It's not easy, it can be a juggling act at best! lol Honestly, the cabinet drop on the "E" strings are not the biggest offenders to me: I notice it more on the 6th string with B & C pedals and on the 6 string open when raising strings 5 & 10 a whole tone and raising strings 4 & 8 a half tone. Fine tuning by ear is something that can be learned over time. Listen deep to the relationship between the intervals & 3(or more) note chord combinations & you can train your ears. I've been doing this for years but am able to tune at the same time loud(canned) music is being played.

[Justin Emmert]

The E’s on my G2 drop about 4 cents with AB pedals down, so yours seems fine. It’s not out if the norm. Search on the forum how to tune your guitar by ear using harmonics, write down your custom offsets, then make your own custom tuning for your Peterson tuner. Lots of info in the forum on how to do it.

[Marty Broussard]

Karen,
What Dale and Justin said, especially his comments about the 6th string dropping. IMO the 4th & 8th strings dropping can be dealt with faster…I’ll explain below. But, you might be able to get the open, AB combo, A pedal, and AF combo tuned in a pleasing manner with the stuff below. Your ideal tuning method depends on your situation—and I have different regimens for my situations. I recently stated the differences in another thread. You might look for that for your knowledge. The stuff below was what I developed because I couldn’t make noise on stage and didn’t have time to do deep dives on borrowed instruments.

I don’t know how long you’ve been playing or had the G2 but what you’re hearing is a good thing. It provides you with the opp to improve your game—-either by tuning adjustments, or playing technique, or both.

These next steps are for a quick start. To get the guitar tuned satisfactorily for all of your needs might require several steps. Try the following for now to see if things improve enough to make you happy. Going further can be a deep hole, but worth it once you know how to do this stuff and how your guitar reacts to some particular combinations. But, you should be able to tune by ear and then you can setup your tuner for your particular axe.

For a total/permanent fix find the tuning procedure in Winnie Winston’s book or possibly Tom Bradshaw’s site, and note every (cent) value simultaneously with your Peterson tuner. That will develop your ears, tune any guitar to itself, and setup your tuner for a particular guitar.

Note: As I stated, when I used someone else’s axe I used this 4th string trick to get me thru a show along with listening and slanting the bar a tad, etc to get by.. This might help you get a quick start and get some encouragement. Honestly, 5 cents is tolerable—-notice that one of t Jeff’s charts sets the E’s at +9.8 cents…whew. Again, this was the only acceptable thing I could do in my last gig and I eventually developed the ability to make numerical (cent) adjustments on my tuner by hearing the rapidness of the waveforms.

The 4th string drop:
Utilizing your Peterson tuner establish how much it flattens with the AB pedal combined. Then globally set your Peterson sharp by that many cents. Then utilize the SE9 tuning regimen and see how the guitar performs.
In particular, if your parallax skills are good you should be able to play the guitar at non-pedal frets in tune and use the AB combo in tune—-a little vibrato helps BUT don’t use it as a crutch.

The next thing is establishing how much the 6th string drops with the A pedal pressed and the AF combo, and how to deal with it….like adding a compensator to slightly raise the 6th string with the A pedal engaged. But you could do another quick trick to see if it makes you happy….at least for now. It’s a compromise, but some people like it.

The quick trick: Notice that in the Peterson charts your G#’s are tempered to around -14 or -15 cents. When you pluck strings 4,5,6 or 5,6,8 or 6,8,10 with the A pedal or the AF combo the G#’s will likely sound flat. Simply tune them at -7 and see if that helps enough to make you happy when you use the A pedal and AF combo. You can hear the waves and make adjustments to your satisfaction. This will usually mean that the more the 6th is in tune with the A pedal and AF combo the more it will be sharp in the non-pedal positions. It will in tune in the AB combo too but you’ll have to retune the B pedal after raising the open pitch. I’m putting emphasis on the 6th string but this applies to the 3rd string too.

Just to let you know how the journey is personal , there’s a local player that was struggling with the 6th string drop while using the A pedal and AF combo so I showed him what it would sound like tuning the open 6th string slightly sharper and what it be like to have a designated compensator via the A pedal. He loved the compensator, So I permenately installed it and showed him how to tune it without causing other headaches. He was strongly considering selling his guitar, but he’s happy now. I cannot imagine a G2 being too troublesome.

I hope this is clearly stated and helps you. I want to believe that an advanced player has made a video or course on this stuff because it’s already a challenge to play steel without struggling with tuning issues. I hope you can find a reputable source to save some time and place you on a good permanent path. I typed this in a hurry with my phone so ask for clarification if needed.

[bob drawbaugh]

What is considered excessive cabinet drop? My S10 G2 comes up 5 cents off on both E’s and 7th string F# w pedals down. I’d love be to hear what others do to get the guitar to sound more in tune. I have a Peterson tuner but when I use SE9 it still sounds out of tune. Is this an issue for other G2 players and if so what is your solution? Thanks!

Karen, I have a S10 G2 and a Discovery. I get about a 5 cent cabinet drop on both. My son has a D10 G2, His is the same. I've played and seen worse. Dale and Marty both had great suggestions. I don't use the peterson presets. I made my on. I can tell you for Both my guitars they are different than the peterson preset. I think the Peterson SE9 preset was based on Jeff Newman's tuning off sets. His E's were 10 cents sharp. Remember he played the Day setup. So his A and B pedals were closer to the middle of the guitar. So I would expect his guitars would have more cabinet drop.

[Marty Broussard]

Bob, I forgot that Jeff played the Day setup so you’re probably correct. I assumed he made the chart when he was playing an older guitar(60’s or 70’s model?) and never updated it. But your hypothesis makes more sense.

I want to stress that what I posted above is a quick/temporary fix or experiment, but the final solution is the goal.

[Donny Hinson]

...I’d love be to hear what others do to get the guitar to sound more in tune...so what is your solution?

Stop, looking at your digital tuner and use your ears!

You can't even place the bar that accurately (within 5 cents). In fact, most players can't even hold a note within 5 cents when using the bar!

And by the way, the notes played on a regular guitar are just as bad; they're seldom within 5 cents. Yes, regular guitars have far more "drop" than pedal steels. (Betcha didn't know that! )

And forget all those factory "presets", because none of them were made using your guitar, your particular setup, your string gauges, and your hands.

[Karen Sarkisian]

Thanks everyone been tuning by ear all day, will try these methods tomorrow!

[Karen Sarkisian]

Hey guys quick question.. all of my pedals are moved to to the right on the guitar so pedal A is where B usually is and B is where C usually is and C is in 4th position. Mullen built it this way for me so it felt more similar to my Emmons. Do u think this could be causing additional drop? I did notice yesterday that it drops an additional amount if I press a little harder on my B pedal (in third position). I this is closer to the center of the guitar so I’m thinking maybe it’s causing the issue to be worse.

[Kevin Hatton]

No guitar that I've ever owned dropped more than three cents on the E's. I'll be the lone dissenter here. I would not play any guitar with more than three cents drop on the E's. You're dis intonating after that. My current ZB has one cent cabinet drop, and I've owned Push Pulls that had zero cabinet drop on the E's. The six string A/F position always has drop unless like Emmons you've got an anti drop device on it. I just tune the sixth string in closer. So, Karen, to me that guitar is way unacceptable at 5 cents drop and not built well. Others will differ, but I don't like a lot of drop on the E's. I can hear it.

[Karen Sarkisian]

Thanks Kevin, I’m going to move my pedals back to standard position and see if that helps. If not I will try adding additional pulls on the Es and F# when pedals down. Mike is going to send me parts. Maybe I should send it back to Mullen and have them fix it, I dunno. I know they make great guitars maybe my ear is just extra sensitive. I’m still working on tuning by ear but it’s hard to get harmonics on frets 3 and 9 to ring out long enough. I’m working on it every day tho so hoping i will get better at it.

[Karen Sarkisian]

Karen,
What Dale and Justin said, especially his comments about the 6th string dropping. IMO the 4th & 8th strings dropping can be dealt with faster…I’ll explain below. But, you might be able to get the open, AB combo, A pedal, and AF combo tuned in a pleasing manner with the stuff below. Your ideal tuning method depends on your situation—and I have different regimens for my situations. I recently stated the differences in another thread. You might look for that for your knowledge. The stuff below was what I developed because I couldn’t make noise on stage and didn’t have time to do deep dives on borrowed instruments.

I don’t know how long you’ve been playing or had the G2 but what you’re hearing is a good thing. It provides you with the opp to improve your game—-either by tuning adjustments, or playing technique, or both.

These next steps are for a quick start. To get the guitar tuned satisfactorily for all of your needs might require several steps. Try the following for now to see if things improve enough to make you happy. Going further can be a deep hole, but worth it once you know how to do this stuff and how your guitar reacts to some particular combinations. But, you should be able to tune by ear and then you can setup your tuner for your particular axe.

For a total/permanent fix find the tuning procedure in Winnie Winston’s book or possibly Tom Bradshaw’s site, and note every (cent) value simultaneously with your Peterson tuner. That will develop your ears, tune any guitar to itself, and setup your tuner for a particular guitar.

Note: As I stated, when I used someone else’s axe I used this 4th string trick to get me thru a show along with listening and slanting the bar a tad, etc to get by.. This might help you get a quick start and get some encouragement. Honestly, 5 cents is tolerable—-notice that one of t Jeff’s charts sets the E’s at +9.8 cents…whew. Again, this was the only acceptable thing I could do in my last gig and I eventually developed the ability to make numerical (cent) adjustments on my tuner by hearing the rapidness of the waveforms.

The 4th string drop:
Utilizing your Peterson tuner establish how much it flattens with the AB pedal combined. Then globally set your Peterson sharp by that many cents. Then utilize the SE9 tuning regimen and see how the guitar performs.
In particular, if your parallax skills are good you should be able to play the guitar at non-pedal frets in tune and use the AB combo in tune—-a little vibrato helps BUT don’t use it as a crutch.

The next thing is establishing how much the 6th string drops with the A pedal pressed and the AF combo, and how to deal with it….like adding a compensator to slightly raise the 6th string with the A pedal engaged. But you could do another quick trick to see if it makes you happy….at least for now. It’s a compromise, but some people like it.

The quick trick: Notice that in the Peterson charts your G#’s are tempered to around -14 or -15 cents. When you pluck strings 4,5,6 or 5,6,8 or 6,8,10 with the A pedal or the AF combo the G#’s will likely sound flat. Simply tune them at -7 and see if that helps enough to make you happy when you use the A pedal and AF combo. You can hear the waves and make adjustments to your satisfaction. This will usually mean that the more the 6th is in tune with the A pedal and AF combo the more it will be sharp in the non-pedal positions. It will in tune in the AB combo too but you’ll have to retune the B pedal after raising the open pitch. I’m putting emphasis on the 6th string but this applies to the 3rd string too.

Just to let you know how the journey is personal , there’s a local player that was struggling with the 6th string drop while using the A pedal and AF combo so I showed him what it would sound like tuning the open 6th string slightly sharper and what it be like to have a designated compensator via the A pedal. He loved the compensator, So I permenately installed it and showed him how to tune it without causing other headaches. He was strongly considering selling his guitar, but he’s happy now. I cannot imagine a G2 being too troublesome.

I hope this is clearly stated and helps you. I want to believe that an advanced player has made a video or course on this stuff because it’s already a challenge to play steel without struggling with tuning issues. I hope you can find a reputable source to save some time and place you on a good permanent path. I typed this in a hurry with my phone so ask for clarification if needed.

Thank you Marty will try this method tonight. May need to add a pull to 6 string. Tommy Cass mentioned that as well. Travis toy has a method on his site but it requires getting harmonics to ring out on frets 3 and 9 which is difficult for me.

[Dave Magram]

Thanks Kevin, I’m going to move my pedals back to standard position and see if that helps. If not I will try adding additional pulls on the Es and F# when pedals down. Mike is going to send me parts. Maybe I should send it back to Mullen and have them fix it, I dunno. I know they make great guitars maybe my ear is just extra sensitive. I’m still working on tuning by ear but it’s hard to get harmonics on frets 3 and 9 to ring out long enough. I’m working on it every day tho so hoping i will get better at it.

Whew, Karen--that sounds like a lot of work!
Here's a logical and brilliant suggestion from Larry Bell that would take about 30 seconds to test...

************************************************
Larry Bell E9 tuning method

viewtopic.php?t=232827

Pete Burak
Posted 4 Sep 2012

I have found Larry Bell’s tuning method to work very well, since it centers around E at “440” (“straight-up” on tuner), but automatically compensates for any “cabinet drop” on your individual guitar—which no other method seems to do. Very clever, Larry!

http://www.larrybell.org/id32.htm

http://www.larrybell.org/id29.htm

**********************************************************
Larry Bell
http://www.larrybell.org/id32.htm

Tune the E chord to compensate for detuning (cabinet drop, axle flex, etc.)

1. Push your A and B pedals and release a few times, then HOLD THE A & B PEDALS DOWN (ENGAGED).
Tune the E notes to be STRAIGHT UP (0 deflection) WITH THE A and B PEDALS ENGAGED

2. Release your A and B pedals (NO PEDALS ENGAGED)
Check your E strings. They should be 4-8 cents sharp (441-442 on the Hertz scale)
Tune the B's the same offset as the E's; if the E's are 4 cents sharp, tune the B's 4 cents sharp

(Rest of instructions at: http://www.larrybell.org/id32.htm )

**********************************************************
I completely agree with Pete Burak's comments in 2012. I have been using Larry's method for many years with great success, in combination with Jeff Newman's original "440" tuning chart.

What I think is so brilliant about Larry's method is that because different guitars have different levels of cabinet drop, Larry's method automatically compensates the offset of the B and E strings to any level of cabinet drop, depending on the offset needed for that specific guitar.

As most of you probably know, Jeff Newman's original tuning chart had the E strings tuned at the "440" straight-up position, and the rest of the E major triad based on that. It never made sense to me to use an arbitrary offset such as Jeff Newman's second tuning chart he created a few years later where the E strings are tuned to the "442.5" position, apparently based on one "benchmark" guitar in Nashville.

- Dave

[Justin Emmert]

Hey guys quick question.. all of my pedals are moved to to the right on the guitar so pedal A is where B usually is and B is where C usually is and C is in 4th position. Mullen built it this way for me so it felt more similar to my Emmons. Do u think this could be causing additional drop? I did notice yesterday that it drops an additional amount if I press a little harder on my B pedal (in third position). I this is closer to the center of the guitar so I’m thinking maybe it’s causing the issue to be worse.

I moved mine to the right one space to add a zero pedal. Made no difference.

[Karen Sarkisian]

yeah I moved em on my discovery w minimal change.will try Larry bell method. its rough because once you hear the slight off sounding tuning you can't unheard it. for me its especially noticeable on chords, I can hear the beats and its hard to compensate w bar when playing 3 strings at the same time.

[Ken Metcalf]

When I switched to the Peterson offsets that have the Es slightly sharp it seems more in tune in a live setting.
Sort of the same as Tuning the Es with the pedals down I guess.
At home or in the garage is different. Maybe play along with practice tracks.

[Donny Hinson]

When I tune, I tune the 4th string open to “E” on my tuner. I work the pedals and levers several times, until there is little or no change. Next (and this is my secret), I put the tuner away and tune everything else so it sounds good with that “E” note. None of my guitars have compensators, so everything isn’t in perfect tune. And as Karen says, some 3-note chords will be out of tune. But my ears recognize what is out, and I compensate with the bar, use 2-string intervals, and flat-out avoid certain chords that I know will come off sounding out. My theory is…”I’d rather play fewer things that are in perfect tune than to try to play everything under the sun, and have some of it sound terrible.” And unless you have compensators out the ying-yang, that’s the way it’s gonna be. A lot of it is picking and choosing what to play. On fast stuff, there’s tons of latitude, and I can play just about anything. But on slower stuff, I’m NOT going to sound out. Two notes and 5 chords played perfectly in-tune is better than 15 notes and 25 chords with some of them sounding like crap.

I call that “working within the confines of my ability and my instrument”. I realize that wouldn’t work for everyone, but it works for me.

[Kevin Hatton]

If the guitar was built correctly you wouldn't have to worry about all that.

[Johnny Cox]

Every brand of steel has cabinet drop, or detuning. The best way to solve it is tune by ear to the center of pitch in whatever your playing situation is. Put the tuner away.

[Donny Hinson]

If the guitar was built correctly you wouldn't have to worry about all that.

Do you mean with compensators? Let’s face it, you can’t get the 7th string sounding perfect (with pedals up and pedals down) without a compensator. You can try to finagle it somewhere in between, and make it just “okay”. But that just means it’s not going to be perfectly in tune either way. That’s the nature of the beast, so don’t drive yourself crazy trying to tune perfectly. As Johnny said, putting the tuner away and tuning by ear (so it sounds good) is what you gotta do. As the Peterson manual says:

“As it happens, there is no one temperament for truly in-tune musical intervals over multiple key signatures.”

(Peterson electro-musical instruments)

[Bill Duncan]

I believe cabinet drop is caused by electronic tuners. Put the tuner away and balance by ear and cabinet drop goes away.

[Dennis Montgomery]

When I got my G2 SD12 back in 2018 I had a tough time finding a temperament on the Peterson tuner that worked for me. Could be because my style is mostly 3 & 4 note chords and not many single note riffs. Tried all the standard ones on the tuner and nothing sounded good. Finally I traded some PM's with the most knowledgeable PSG guy regarding tuning I ever knew, b0b and he suggested F# meantone and it worked great. Soon after when I downtuned a whole step to D9, I adjusted to E meantone and I've been with it ever since

For anyone interested, here's the custom Peterson tuning that b0b suggested to me in that PM:

C +15
G +12.5
D +10
A +7.5
E +5
B +2.5
F# 0
C# -2.5
G# -5
D# -7.5
A# -10
E# -12.5
B# -15

As you can see, the biggest problem is C vs B#. That depends on which side you usually harmonize with. F is usually tuned flat (E#) on E9th. If you want your C to harmonize with F (E#), you need to tune it to B# -15. If you want C to harmonize with G, you need to tune it to +15.

[Bob Carlucci]

oh boy... The "tuning procedure" in my day was to say to the lead guitarist-"gimmee an E"...
1-tune both e's up-
2-tune all other strings to the E;s by ear
3- tune the pedals/knee levers up, by ear...

done, in tune... You guys really are overthinking this.
Listen to the great players from 50-60 years ago.. Always in tune, probably tuned to a piano, guitar, or even a damn pitch pipe, and the term "cabinet drop" was unknown.... too much tech these days, has everyone relying on little magic boxes, instead of their God given senses.... bob

[Roger Rettig]

Well said, Bob.

[Ken Metcalf]

Gimmi an E is not a good answer unless everyone in the band is a old pro.
Certainly not a good answer for a beginner.
Back in the good old days things were not in perfect tune.
Tuning live onstage is noisy, unprofessional and sometimes not practical or possible.
I do check some by ear briefly.
Make Tuning Great Again LOL.

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