If you could add string pulls, what would you choose?

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Dave Zirbel
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If you could add string pulls, what would you choose?

Post by Dave Zirbel »

Happy New Year!
I hope I can post this here:

I have a D-8 Fender console and the tuning pan and body has holes under strings 2 and 3 .Most likely it had a pedal or lever. I have A6 the with E on top. I could easily retune to C6.

I’m mostly and E9 pedal guy with some non pedal experience and skills...but I’m limited on non pedal...maybe on pedal too😂
Image .

I realize you’re all dedicated to non pedal ( that’s why you’re here😁),but is there ever a moment when you’re playing and you kind of wished you could alter the pitch of a string just for a moment. If so, what would you choose? Yes, I’m afraid I might rig up a pedal or two. I’ve always preferred tone and timbre of non pedals. Trust me, I wouldn’t consider this if the holes were not there. Also would it be lame to drill another hole since it’s already comprised?

Thank you
Dave
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Allan Revich
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Post by Allan Revich »

Perhaps not the answer you’re looking for, but since I usually tune to a major chord, it would be nice to have a lever to drop the 3 a half tone for minor triads, and another lever to drop the root a full tone for dominant 7s.
Current Tunings:
GBDGBD (open G)
GBDEGBD (G6)

https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database
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K Maul
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Post by K Maul »

I have tried the coat hanger pedal trick on a Dual Pro that had holes like that and broke a lot of strings! Maybe I didn’t set it up right.
Instead of raising one or two strings you could try something like Speedy West. He tuned (hi) G#EC#BbG#EC#Bb and kept his foot on a pedal raising the Bb to B. Since those holes are on 2+3 you could try EC#Bb(B)G#EC#BE with one change.
You could try Jerry Byrd’s E9 :(lo) G# B D E F# G# B E and use both changes on 2+3 for B-C# and G#-A. That seems more likely what the previous owner was going for. Have extra strings handy!
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Norman Evans
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Post by Norman Evans »

I would tune high to low-E,B,G#,F#,E,C#,A,F#. Then I would pull the B to C# and the G# to A on separate pedals if possible. You would have an E chord on strings 1,2,3, and 5 with pedals up and a full A6 with both pedals down. Several different ways to get minors and suspended voicings and others.
Last edited by Norman Evans on 1 Jan 2021 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dave Zirbel »

Perhaps not the answer you’re looking for, but since I usually tune to a major chord, it would be nice to have a lever to drop the 3 a half tone for minor triads, and another lever to drop the root a full tone for dominant 7s.
Thanks....I’m not even sure what answer I’m looking for, just something subtle and useful
.
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Dave Zirbel
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Post by Dave Zirbel »

Thanks for jumping in everyone.

I did wonder about out string breakage. Thinking lowers on a few strings, or just half step raises....high A to A# would be useful
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Post by Dave Zirbel »

BTW I am still practicing my slants! Even the three note ones!😁
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Post by K Maul »

I was playing a festival in Oklahoma one time and doing a workshop with a bunch of players including Josh Graves. I had this “B bender” on my dobro- a pedal hooked to the second string which dropped it from B to A. I was doing Ralph Mooney licks. So somebody asked me what the thing was and I was explaining how it worked. Josh looked at me and said semi jokingly “I told him backstage if he learned how to use his wrist right he wouldn’t need one of them things “.
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Post by Nic Neufeld »

I normally play in Jules C13...and the question is not particularly theoretical, as Jules transitioned to using a Fender 1000 before his untimely death and was using pedals (mostly in subtle ways), as did Billy Hew Len and Barney Isaacs. I tinkered around with my Fender 400 with a modified C6...here are some of the ones I'd consider adding if I could just add a few...

Main tuning:
ECAGECBbC

"pedal" 1...flatten second string to B (if possible, also sharp seventh string to B). Major 7th effect. This was used by Jules in a rare obvious way in the dying notes of Alfred Apaka's Princess Poopooly...

pedal 2....flatten 4th string to F#. Converts it to D9 tuning, nice for 7th/9th chords.

pedal 3....sharp the 6th string to C# for JB's C6A7. Have to stay away from string 7 and 8 though...

pedal 4....sharp strings 2 and 3 by a whole step...major 9th sound (I use that a lot in the open position in C, would be nice to get it anywhere on the neck).

Like I said, I tinkered with some of these on my 400, but my problem is, my nonpedal steels just sounded so much better than the 400...fuller, more sustain...so the added chordal flexibility hasn't wooed me over yet. Basil's A7 copedent is amazing for the same styles (Hawaiian, jazz, others) but is going to take some practice to get down...
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Post by Dave Zirbel »

problem is, my nonpedal steels just sounded so much better than the 400...fuller, more sustain...
Exactly...I wouldn’t have posted this if my pedals steels sounded as good as my non pedals.

Thanks for the input. Who is Jules?
Dz
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Post by Nic Neufeld »

Dave Zirbel wrote: Exactly...I wouldn’t have posted this if my pedals steels sounded as good as my non pedals.

Thanks for the input. Who is Jules?
Dz
Sorry, Jules Ah See....Hawaiian player from the 1950s (died in 1960). Sideman to Alfred Apaka and probably the main player for the Hawaii Calls radio show in the late 50s.
Couple examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv3B5dIdTuM
He really lets his hair down in these live recordings:
https://archive.org/details/TapaRoomTap ... Hawaii.mp3
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Post by Dave Zirbel »

Thanks Nic!
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Post by Fred Treece »

Just to keep things in the realm of possibility - there is no way to do a pull that lowers the strings. Is there? I mean with a fixed bridge and nut.

In C6, I was always trying to finger-pull the C strings up to C#, E to F, A to Bb...I would have been happy with half-step raises on all 8 strings.
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Post by Rob Fenton »

I would probably tune to C6, and raise C to C#, and A to Bb.

This would give you C7 and A7, and using both together would give you a diminished 7th chord. E, G, Bb, C#, any of which can be the root.
You can also think of them as the 3rd through seventh of 7(b9) chords.
C7(b9), Eb7(b9), F#7(b9), A7(b9)

This is borrowed from the Leavitt tuning, or from one of Joaquin Murphey's tunings.
I use Leavitt quite a bit, but only with a 6th tuning on the other neck of my D8 for single note playing. Pedals like this would help me to use both tunings on one neck.
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Post by Dave Zirbel »

Just to keep things in the realm of possibility - there is no way to do a pull that lowers the strings. Is there? I mean with a fixed bridge and nut.
It can done with the “plunger in the keyhead” system. You would actually tune your lowered tone up top as if it was your open tuning. The plunger would be held down with a spring in the linkage, raising the note back to pitch. Engaging the pedal would be releasing spring tension and lowering the pitch...reverse engineering I guess. Permanent pedal steels work like that I think.
Last edited by Dave Zirbel on 1 Jan 2021 11:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Allan Revich »

Fred Treece wrote:Just to keep things in the realm of possibility - there is no way to do a pull that lowers the strings. Is there? I mean with a fixed bridge and nut.

In C6, I was always trying to finger-pull the C strings up to C#, E to F, A to Bb...I would have been happy with half-step raises on all 8 strings.
I guess the same thing could be easily accomplished by doing the opposite then. Tuning the 3 to a b3, and one of the 1s down to the 7. Then use the the lever or pedal to bring those strings back up to the major.
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Post by Dave Mudgett »

Of course it depends on what you wanna play and how you're gonna tune it. But if you're gonna stick with A6 and an easily re-tuned C6, more or less like this (lo-hi):

Code: Select all

C6      F(4)    A(6)    C(1)    E(3)    G(5)    A(6)    C(1)    E(3)
A6      F#(6)   A(1)    C#(3)   E(5)    F#(6)   A(1)    C#(3)   E(5)
and I wanted to do something subtle to add to the tuning, I would probably first put a string 2 single-raise raise on a pedal.

In C6 this would give C=>C# and an automatic switch to A13 on the first 5 strings in pedals-down position. And if A6 is tuned normally except string 2 goes to C instead of C#, then the pedal-down position is your standard A6, and in pedal-up position you get D9 on the first 5 strings with the F#/A/C diminished triad on strings 2-4. Or if you wanna tune A6 normally, the raise gives you D and a 4 chord on strings 2-5 or sus4 on the top 5 strings.

If I was gonna add a pull to string 3, I'd probably just stick the obvious single-raise there too. This would give the A=>Bb, or 6=>b7 change on C6 for a C7 chord and 1=>#1 for an F#7 chord on A6. And one can re-tune that string up or down for different views of its function. There's a lot on a 6th tuning that a single change up or down can give.

I personally wouldn't mess with a plunger to get a lower. Instead, if I wanted a lower, I'd think backwards like Sneaky Pete and tune it in the "normal" tuning with pedal-down, and then back off the pedal to get the lower. It's not a pedal steel, and not, IMO, well-suited for any type of drastic or complex changes. Anyway, I play E9 pedal steel too and I see no need to replicate that on a console steel. I think one could deal with string breakage or not returning to pitch on a real simple change like this by perhaps slightly lightening the string gauge (use the string gauge appropriate for the highest note you want) and using plenty of Tri-Flow at the nut.

If you wanted to drill more holes, you could extend that to the lower strings, or do something else with them. But I would find even just these simple and easy-to-implement string 2 and/or string 3 changes very useful, especially on swing, blues, and so on.

I have an early-50s D8 Dual Pro with nice original finish - it's too nice to do this to it. I also have an orphan single long-scale Stringmaster 8-string neck with legs that Erv Niehaus refinished (very nicely I might add) that I have considered drilling a hole or two in for something like this to make it a bit more versatile as a single-neck non-pedal guitar. It's tuned exactly as above. But it's such a gorgeous guitar that I haven't done it at this point. I hate cutting into the wood on a vintage guitar of any type. Call it a foible. I had a great '53 Les Paul Gold Top with shallow neck angle and trapeze tailpiece with strings that went under the bridge. It was a truly great guitar with that exception, but I refused to do the obvious thing and reset the neck to a proper angle and put a wraparound bridge on it. So I traded it and now they're 20-30 grand and up. So maybe I'll cut the holes in the refin! Ya' got me thinkin'.
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Post by Rick Abbott »

I have a 1954 Gibson CG with the Shot Jackson-built two pedal plunger changer in the front neck. It changes 5 strings and looks to be able to raise and lower. I have never attempted to set it up.

In your case I'd do a basic A and B pedal, I think.
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Post by Dave Zirbel »

In your case I'd do a basic A and B pedal, I think.
I’m hoping not to do that. I have plenty of guitars that do that..

I’ve been reading all the helpful comments while sitting down at the guitar...I’ve already learned a lot from this discussion...maybe I just need to practice 😂

In A6 I think raising A to A# would get used a lot
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Post by Rick Abbott »

I get it. It's really too basic. I'm not very advanced, haha.

Maybe I should get that Gibson out and give it some thought. At least see if it will work.
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Post by Dave Zirbel »

I get it. It's really too basic. I'm not very advanced, haha.
Same here...I guess this whole thread is about me looking for an easy way out! LOL! I should just practice....it would be cool to have a pedal or two though

dz
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Post by Jesse Valdez »

When ever I’m playing my dual pro, the two changes I wish for in C6 are 1. A->Bb for the b7th while playing single note and 2. C->C# for the slants on the higher strings. Having those two on separate pedals would be great, and of course together you’d get the diminished. Another option would be A->B and C->D, you have pedal 4 and split pedal 7, plus a “9” like reentrant string.

Another option I like you could do is split Issac’s changes like Vance Terry had on his Bigsby, the pedal neck was the Boggs tuning, but it was pitched in G, G/E/B/A/F/D/B/G, the second string is lowered from the six to the five and the third string is three to four, here are some examples,

https://youtu.be/nXXP55F2fzM
https://youtu.be/4tuWF_WoX-U

None of his good early pedal stuff is on YouTube, let me know if you want to hear it.
That’s my 2 cents, personally if you wanted to drill, it’s already modded and painted so I say go ahead.
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Tim Whitlock
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Post by Tim Whitlock »

For my preferred style I would love to have an Isaacs pedal on my Gibson console. Seems simple enough to make a lever to pull the strings but then you need a way to tune the pulls and you're down the rabbit hole.


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Post by Bill McCloskey »

Never broke a string playing lap steel. Used to break them all the time with my Duesy with the hand pedals. I sold it. Never again.