Why not Keyless?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 May 2006 6:17 am

The primary advantage of a keyless guitar is the virtual elimination of what we call hysteresis - the over-return of a string that is both raised and lowered. The hysteresis detuning effect occurs in the keyhead. It's the reason that Lloyd Green decided not to lower his 4th string, so many years ago.

Modern guitars like Paul's solve the hysteresis problem with return compensator pulls. Once you add return compensators into the equation, keyless and keyed guitars have the same degree of tuning stability.

I like keyless because it's the simpler solution and, as an engineer, I gravitate towards simpler solutions. But players who use return compensators enjoy the primary benefit of keyless in a traditional-looking instrument. I can't argue with that.

If you don't have return compensator pulls and can't hear the hysteresis effect on your high E string, then you probably can't hear the very subtle difference in tone induced by a keyless head anyway. Why worry about something that you can't hear?

I'm not out to convert people to keyless. I just know that it helps me to play in tune if I don't have to worry about which knee lever I used last.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Geoff Cole · Post by **Geoff Cole** » 16 May 2006 6:46 am

For those who recon keyless guitars are ugly,you must be on drugs.Have you ever seen an Anapeg?

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 16 May 2006 6:50 am

The hysteresis detuning effect occurs in the keyhead.

It seems to me, that if you have to add compensators to keep your tuning up, then you are essentially adding stuff to your guitar, that would not have to be there had the guitar been keyless.

But, if you like the "traditional" look, then maybe it is worth it.

It would not be for me.

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 16 May 2006 7:05 am

I think the Anapeg is absolutly beautiful and I'm on drugs.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 16 May 2006 7:14 am

B0B...a degree of concurrence here:

Aside from the "primary advantage" prioritizing opening statement, the hysteretic behavior of pitch via changer activation/deactivation (lack of return to pitch)is a subject unto itself.

Several possibilities occur:

1. The roller/nut is not doing its job.

2. The changer is not returning true.

3. The string is stretching/contracting and not returning to where it was tuned.

RE 1. These devices are quite different in design between different instruments, hence probably do not behave alike. We have V shaped vs. U shaped rollers. WE have various axle sizes and surface to surface (roller to axle) finish issues to consider...to lubricate or not...to clean or not.

RE 2. There are a lot of opportunities for slop in the changer mechanisms.

RE 3. This is a common problem with the 0.011 G# when it goes plastic...sometime before exceeding it's tensile strength limit and breaking.

Questions:

1. Which strings do you find are the worst offenders? Are these the long overhang ones, or the thin plain ones, or the fat wound ones?

2. Is there a bit of slack in the tuning rods when not activated?

3. How were the return springs set?

Thoughts:

1. From the non return to pitch standpoint, I like string lengths as close to scale lengths as possible.

2. I don't see a "need" for the roller (look to see how much it moves) with today's very hard, and low coefficient of friction materials and methods.

3. I agree with "simplicity" of structure being desirable. The simple is seldom the obvious, and is usually hampered/obscured by tradition (thinking gets caught in a groove).

4. This is probably a subject of it own, and only partially a keyed vs. keyless issue.

5. All keyed are not alike...all keyless are definitely not alike. When we are saying keyless/gearless we usually are thinking short overhang...when we are saying keyed, we are usually thinking long overhang. This last is not true as some of the strings have very short overhangs. Which cause the most non return to pitch problems?

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 16 May 2006 7:23 am

Which cause the most non return to pitch problems?

The ones with the long overhang (keyed) of course. There is more string travel over the nut. More string travel=increased chance of non-return to pitch.

People have said that I use the string breakage as my only basis for prefering keyless. Not so.

The non-return to pitch issue is another good reason I choose keyless, and I believe there are several players who feel the same way.

Plus, they look smart, by design. IMHO, of course!

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 16 May 2006 at 08:29 AM.][This message was edited by Curt Langston on 16 May 2006 at 08:35 AM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 16 May 2006 7:34 am

Bob,

I still found hysteris to be a problem on the keyless guitars I've tried and on any guitar, the more complicated the setup, the more it occurs. The only solution I will ever be content with is a return compensator which would have to be put on any keyless guitar If I ever decided to go in that direction.

Paul

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 16 May 2006 7:43 am

Paul, I can't follow the reason for a need for compensators on a keyless.

Every keyless that I have owned or played, did not have any measureable string movement at the nut. So, no non-return to pitch issues.

That is why Gene Fields does not use a roller nut on his keyless. I never broke a string while tuning up on my keyless GFI. Ever.

Gene is definately on to something there. With the solid bar he uses, you have increased sustain via less energy loss on rollers.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 16 May 2006 8:03 am

Curt you questioned why I compared this thread and where it is going to a Political Forum ?

easy..

A comment early on states that folks do not play or purchase KEYLESS out of Ignorance...or something along those lines...

Someone states a reason why they prefer a KEYED Guitar, and then what follows is a rebuttal..

thats excatly what happens on Political forums..

and we all know the purpose of a rebuttal is to get our own toughts or opinions back into the mix..

thats all that was meant by the comparison..

I look forward to seeing the photo of your new axe...

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 16 May 2006 at 09:04 AM.]

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 16 May 2006 8:12 am

Jack, the short answer is ignorance. NOT in a derogatory way. Just not enlightened on the advantages offered by the keyless technology.

What I meant was "simply not knowing" that's all.

But, on the other hand, some say "ignorance is bliss"

And the reference to Bud Carter was to simply say that I wish he would be open to keyless. I bet he would be surprised at the response.

Either way, my statement was not to be implied negatively.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 16 May 2006 8:51 am

Curt,

I can sit down to your guitar and find the need for compensators. I've done this time and again, with those that say they don't need them. If you keep strings on for two months, you have alot of tuning problems that would bother me.

The best thing about a keyless is that it offers a different sound from keyed instruments, period. Whether that sound sustains 10 seconds or 50, if players don't warm up to the tone of the initial attack of the string its the end of the story. Thats where I stand.

Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 16 May 2006 at 10:01 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 21 May 2006 at 08:37 AM.]

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 16 May 2006 9:03 am

Paul, no disrespect at all, but with all your experience, YOU might be able to hear that my Sierra needs compensators, but I cannot. Neither can my Korg tuner. After all, I only have about 1/2 inch(at best) of overhang to deal with. That is too small amount of string to cause(audible) hysteresis.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 16 May 2006 9:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The best thing about a keyless is that it offers a different sound from keyed instruments, period. Whether that sound sustains 10 seconds or 50, if players don't warm up to the tone of the initial attack of the string its the end of the story. Thats where I stand.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I totally disagree with that statement, I am glad that you post your opinion. I wish more players would. This is a great topic for discussion, and everyone's input is appreciated. Whether agreed upon or not.

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I'd rather be opinionated, than apathetic!

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 16 May 2006 9:19 am

I am confident about my musical needs enough to tell you a keyless guitar would not satisfy me.

I am confident about my musical needs enough as well Mr Franklin, to tell you that a "Keyed" guitar has no inherited qualities to satisfy my musical needs any better then a "keyless" guitar. And with that being said...my offer still stands, and i will even buy lunch...page 2

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 16 May 2006 11:12 am

I've been following this thread with interest, and feel I must add this note on my personal experience, as it seems no one else has: My GFI keyless has just as much hysteresis as my Sho-Bud! Possibly even more. That said, I have never really found hysteresis to be a problem in playing; "compensating" for it in tuning the open string and the changes, and, I suppose, the instinctive adjustments one makes in bar position while playing, seem to take care of it. I should also add that the GFI has, to my ears, truly excellent sustain and tone.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 16 May 2006 12:06 pm

Curt, with all do respect, Paul is correct. Correct me if I am wrong Paul, please, but the main use for compensators on a pedal steel are on the first and seventh string. The reason being that the first and seventh strings (F#'s) are sixth intervals in the key of "A" with the pedals down. If these string are not compensated flat at least ten cents in the pedals down position your 1st and 7th strings are disintonated and out of tune with your first and third intervals. Those being the third and sixth string pedal down (root A), and the fifth and tenth strings pedals down (C#), the third interval of A. This compensation has nothing to do with whether a guitar has a keyhead or keyless. Hysterisis is another eason for compensators, although I have found good results with return spring adjustments. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 16 May 2006 at 01:17 PM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 16 May 2006 at 01:19 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 May 2006 12:16 pm

Paul Franklin wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Bob,

I still found hysteris to be a problem on the keyless guitars I've tried and on any guitar, the more complicated the setup, the more it occurs. The only solution I will ever be content with is a return compensator which would have to be put on any keyless guitar If I ever decided to go in that direction. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm always careful to say that keyless minimizes the hysteresis effect. It may eliminate hysteresis on some guitars, but hysteresis is still measurable on both of my keyless guitars (Sierra Session, Williams). It's below my threshhold of pitch recognition, but I can see it on the meter.

I understand that, in your highly tuned work environment, you need better accuracy than I can hear. Thanks for pointing that out, Paul.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 May 2006 12:20 pm

Kevin, you're talking about the JI tuning compensators on the F# strings. That's a totally different subject.

Return compensator pulls are used to solve the problem of the E lower returning sharp after the E raise has been used. Or vice versa.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 16 May 2006 12:36 pm

Wow - religion, politics and keyheads are hotbutton subjects, eh?

You know, as far as hysterisis goes I feel many other factors play into that, perhaps ones that have yet to be discovered. I do know that you can minimize it with a lot of meticulous tweaking and maintenance.

I've noticed the worst string for not returning to tune is the 10th string on C6th neck, when you hit the #8 pedal and it drops down that far, but then you hit the #5 and it ususally straightens out pretty good. How does that string stand up on a keyless?[This message was edited by Duane Reese on 16 May 2006 at 05:13 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 16 May 2006 1:19 pm

Ya gotta love being able to tweak and fine tune the Pedal Steel with exactness..

only to..

play in a band that is OUT of tune

or

have some BAR WIGGLE which allows us to play our totally in tune Instruments OFF PITCH !

t

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 17 May 2006 6:09 am

Tony "BAR WIGGLE"? today they call'em a Honky Tonk Badonkadonk...and when you been badonkadonked...all the compensators in the world ain't gonna hep ya...

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 17 May 2006 6:52 am

Just noticed this on Sierras site. Seems they do not offer keyed in the 25 inch scale.

Why is this?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>GEARLESS TUNERS ARE AVAILABLE WITH EITHER THE 24 1/4 INCH SCALE OR THE 25 INCH SCALE.

GROVER TUNERS ARE AVAILABLE ONLY WITH 24 1/4 INCH SCALE.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Those guys are on top of things. They don't want to sell you a guitar that you will have tuning problems with,(hysteresis) or breaking strings.

And you know what? They are right.

Don Poland · Post by **Don Poland** » 17 May 2006 8:11 am

Someone help me out here. I know I am the new guy, but isn't the "Gearless" tuner a "keyed tuner without gears" as opposed to a "Keyless"?? If I am reading that right Curt, that statement from the Seirra sight makes no mention of whether or not KEYLESS is available in either scale?? Am I missing something here?

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1974 MSA D10 Classic 8+5, Matchbox 7A, Digitech Gen3, Nashville 112
If you ain't steelin' it, you ain't feelin' it !!

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donpoland@steelin4fundotcom

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 May 2006 11:11 am

There's not enough room for the keyed head on the standard Sierra body if you use the 25" neck.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 May 2006 11:12 am

"Gearless" is Sierra-speak for "keyless".