Why not Keyless?

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 30 Apr 2006 4:51 am

On the current GFI thread, I commented that if I were looking to buy a new steel (and I'm not) a keyless GFI would be on my "short list".

But, the question is about all keyless guitars, not just the GFI. And other than it doesn't look like what the "conventional" steel guitar looks like, why not keyless?

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 30 Apr 2006 5:09 am

Jack, the short answer is ignorance. NOT in a derogatory way. Just not enlightened on the advantages offered by the keyless technology. The "it just don't look right" crowd will continue to be stuck in the old technology of the keyed guitar. A shame too. I've heard it stated that Bud Carter will never make a keyless guitar. What a pity.
Dragging strings across the nut increases string breakage and creates unwanted overtones. Simple.
"it just don't look right" as the only reason to shy away from a keyless is disheartening.

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I'd rather be opinionated, than apathetic!

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[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 12 May 2006 at 07:18 PM.]

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 30 Apr 2006 5:23 am

Having owned and played both, I have played Keyless Williams) for over 20 years. Nuff said. I was once told my steel looked like a toy because it was short. I responded, yeah but it doesn't sound like
a toy does it? The answer was NO. Another added advantage is it does not take up as much room on the bandstand. Important in some clubs ( notorious in Fur and Feather clubs ie: Eagles, Elks, Moose, Lions, etc. that have Postage Stamp sized bandstands.) JMO

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 30 Apr 2006 6:02 am

Some folks look for the "overtones". My PP would not sound like it does without them.

Larry Behm

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 30 Apr 2006 6:12 am

Larry B...if you are referring to the effect of string length beyond the nut, I know a top name LA player that uses plastic sleeves (spaghetti like sleeves) just to dampen that effect out of his PPs...no accounting for taste, and usually no way to have a rational discussion about it.

My preference is both keyless (the ones with no sharp bends in the string), and long scale.

Richard Roach jr · Post by **Richard Roach jr** » 30 Apr 2006 7:30 am

i have a GFI leyless and would not traid it for any thing but i ant no one

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 30 Apr 2006 7:52 am

Some folks look for the "overtones". My PP would not sound like it does without them.

Well, who knows? It may sound even better!

Adrienne Clasky · Post by **Adrienne Clasky** » 30 Apr 2006 8:08 am

I like their smallness, but I keep reading posts claiming the sustain dies after the 12th fret. Is that true? Maybe the lack of overtones is what people really mean by a lack of sustain? I'm very curious.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 30 Apr 2006 8:28 am

Some observations, having both keyed and keyless guits...
Keyless is easier to micro tune (fine tune).
Keyless has less hysteresis (lowers return closer to pitch).
On a keyed guitar I use a string winder to micro tune (gives better leverage).
Hysteresis (following a lower) on a keyed guitar usually corrects itself the next time you raise or even just pluck the string.

Keyed guitars are less complex mechanically, so they are superior to keyless on that note.
Keyless have issues like the screw or allen head, or threads that they screw into, can get stripped (consumable parts that need to be replaced before they fail), and if this happens at the wrong time (on a gig) it can be a show stopper.
Some keyless require you tune the open notes with a tuning wrench (fwiw, I wouldn't want to be tied to that method 100% of the time).
Playability (pedal/lever feel) and tone (keyless often uses a longer scale) don't seem to play a huge factor, although some claim to feel/hear the difference.
FWIW, I played a fair amount of otherwise identicle Sierra steels (identicle except for being keyed/keyless), and didn't notice any majorly significant differences in feel or tone.
I guess we're back to personal preference?!?!...
If I were to buy a GFI I'd probably get a keyless.
If I were to buy a Williams I'd a get a keyed.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 30 Apr 2006 8:48 am

As far as losing sustain after the 12th fret....well I don't know what guitar is being referred to but on the two I've owned,Sierra and Excel - that would be utter hogwash. Quite the contrary actually.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 30 Apr 2006 9:13 am

I can't see how anybody can say a keyless loses sustain past the 12 fret. I believe that a keyed guitar would be more apt to lose sustain past the 12 fret, due to the extra length of string at the keyhead being allowed to vibrate, and thus absorbing energy that would otherwise be left to reverberate(sustain)between the changer and nut.(the actual scale)
You may not like the looks, but you cannot deny the mechanical superiority of a keyless.
Like I have said before. I LIKE the looks of a keyless a lot better. Symmetrical and compact.
It is getting to the point when I see a nice woodgrain finished guitar, I say to myself,"Why couldn't they make it keyless"
As people become more hip to the advantages of the keyless design, we may find more builders offer it as an option. Hopefully!

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 12 May 2006 at 07:15 PM.]

Randy Gilliam · Post by **Randy Gilliam** » 30 Apr 2006 9:47 am

The Commercial Says Dont buy no ugly truck. I aint gonna buy no ugly steel.Randy In San Antonio.

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 30 Apr 2006 10:05 am

Ed I hear you, JD looks for one thing and BE looks for another, me I listen to them all and try to pickup on any and all of the tid bits.

Larry Behm

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 30 Apr 2006 10:08 am

I just checked my keyless GFI for sustain.
Now, this is not scientific by any means. I can't say for certain that I strummed with the same attack at each fret. Quite likely, I did not. But, it should give you an idea.

At the 5th fret it has usable sustain for nearly 30 seconds.

At the 12th fret it is usable for approximately 25 seconds.

At the 17th fret the sustain is usable for around 15 seconds.

At the 24th fret it drops off to about 8 seconds.

I don't have my ZB set up at the moment to make a comparison, but I sincerely can't imagine there being any need for any more sustain than what my GFI has. I've certainly never run out of it.

As for looks, I think that if Gene offered polished tuning knobs and a chromed head base, it would greatly enhance the appearance. Of course, I'd like to see polished neck, side plates and trim and more mica choices as an option too. If these things were offered, he'd about have the market cornered. I just don't know what else anyone could fault with the guitar. After a year and a half, I still love mine to death.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 30 Apr 2006 10:51 am

Keyless guitars are short, ugly, and without the growling overtones of a keyhead guitar. Give me a BIG keyhead with shiny tuning keys. Sustain is also a problem past the twelth fret. I'd never own one. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 30 April 2006 at 04:32 PM.]

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 30 Apr 2006 10:59 am

My Excel keyless is superior to any steel I have owned over the past 60 years. Rough tuning is of little importance, because I pull the string as tight as possible by hand before cinching it down. Replacing a string is quick and fine tuning is a snap. Tuning is done by an allen wrench that stores in a small hole drilled just behind the tuner -- and the same allen wrench is used for tuning the pulls. Most of my audiences don't really know what most steels look like, and I wouldn't care if they did. I plan to stick to keyless from here on out.

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Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 30 Apr 2006 11:07 am

I guess beauty or ugly is indeed in the eyes of the beholder. IMO, the massive foot long keyheads of past eras were excessive and even gaudy. I think the keyless guitars have a clean, uncluttered appearance. Some may view that as an austere utilitarian image...sobeit. Different strokes.

I'm currently playing a wonderful Mullen D10, but past axes include a keyless Sierra 14 and a keyless D10 Lamar. Gearheads and professional technicians probably can hear the differences with overtones and/or the lack of, but with the cacophony on the bandstand, I freely admit that I can't.

Tools are required for string changes and tuning on both designs.
One is not better...just different. That's my 2¢ worth.
I

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 30 Apr 2006 11:09 am

I think keyless looks better. It's more balanced looking. A big keyhead makes the guitar look less symetrical.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 30 Apr 2006 11:18 am

I like the reply Ricky Davis made in the thread on strings.

Apples or Oranges??

Me? I prefer oranges.

Lee, from South Texas

PS: Beware of opinions expressed as facts![This message was edited by Lee Baucum on 30 April 2006 at 12:18 PM.]

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 30 Apr 2006 11:33 am

IMO, the massive foot long keyheads of past eras were excessive and even gaudy. I think the keyless guitars have a clean, uncluttered appearance.

Well put, Jerry.

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 30 Apr 2006 12:33 pm

And so it goes, and comes back again. The keyed v. keyless debate. I have both keyed and keyless guitars. I gig with both. Other musicians in various bands do not have a clue which one I am playing unless they happen to own a steel. I have even changed brand logos (for grins) and they do not know. Certainly, the folks listening never comment.

As far as I am concerned they both sound good. However, my keyless guitars both built in ’83 and ’84, play easier than the popular brand keyed guitar built in 2004. Sustain in any well-made guitar is a matter of technique. Staying in tune is another subject altogether.

I will agree that it is easier to tune with keys, albeit much less accurate. However, with the keyless guitar, It takes less time and I rarely have to tune it once I check it at the beginning of a gig. A little brush up by ear on the G# and I am done. Four hours with the keyed guitar is much more work.

Looks is certainly a function of personal taste. Randy, I just do not think this is an “Ugly Truck”

Finally, when it comes to changing strings, there is no comparison. With the keyless guitar I can change strings in a quarter of the time. In fact, look how little equipment I need for the keyless.

KEYLESS

KEYED

My keyless guitars are not as easy to replace, so when I fly so I take the keyed one. But should I be forced into another guitar it will be keyless.

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 30 Apr 2006 2:06 pm

Jon I play a keyhead PSG (carter d10) I can see your point that it is alot easyer to change out strings that is one feture I would love to have, but the keyhead on my new carter is very nice very small and compact and clean, my old sho-buds keyhead is very large on the other hand, I thought the only reson to go keyless is to loose weight?

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 30 Apr 2006 2:26 pm

Jon,
That is one sweet looking, smart guitar!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 30 Apr 2006 3:40 pm

"Keyless guitars are short, ugly, and the growling overtones of a keyhead guitar."

There seem to be a few words missing here somewhere...whoops, see it was edited to fix the sentence. It's what I thought Kevin was trying to say.

...but if the implication is that keyless guitars lack some sort of "growling overtones" that keyed guitars have, has anyone ever put a scope on a few guitars and proven whether or not 1) such overtones do make their way to the amplified signal, and 2) if so, at what db level, especially in comparison to the "real" notes and the overtones from the nut<->bridge area?

Has anyone ever proven the "lack of sustain" above the 12th fret? I'm puzzling over the physics that would somehow deaden sustain of a guitar that *loses* sustain through peghead vibration transfer ( a proven fact with "normal" guitars over the years - one reason behind Ned Steinberger's patents, which had hard data).

I've never played a keyless guitar, and doubt I'd own one (unless somebody starts punching out 8-strings...) but I really wonder whether there's hard tone data - or whether it's just another "tradition"-based steel opinion.

My guess is the latter.

FWIW I think the keyless design looks cool and would seem to have many, many mechanical and size advantages.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 30 April 2006 at 04:44 PM.]

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 30 Apr 2006 3:53 pm

My keyless Kline never goes out of tune and doesn't break strings. I've recorded and done many gigs with it and didn't even have to use the tuning tool! Pull it out of the case and she's ready. The keyless Kline is the most stable and solid axe I've owned. It doesn't have the vintage sound and vibe but still sounds great.

Dave[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 30 April 2006 at 04:54 PM.]