Why not Keyless?

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 10 May 2006 4:58 pm

It is always great when a builder weighs in with his input. But a builder of high end keyless guitars? For those that don't know. Paul Redmond, has been building the most beautiful keyless steel guitars in the world for going on 30 years. When it comes to keyless..he wrote the book....He has even taken keyed steel guitars, and made them keyless with the beauty, and sound, and mechanical accuracy only a "Master Builder" could do. Paul Redmond has a way with keyless technologies, that are way way ahead of it's time...these beautiful keyless steel guitars speak for themselfs...as Paul said..."Enough Said"!

and he also made this little BMI Keyless

And there are others..but these are the only ones i have pictures of.......

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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar, Boyette Glass Bar, Carvin Guitars, & Amplification, and other neat stuff, and a 165 Pound Great Pyrenees..
I was keyless, when keyless wasn't cool...

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 10 May 2006 5:00 pm

"I was keyless, when keyless wasn't cool"

Some here (obviously not me) STILL think you are uncool!

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Mark

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 10 May 2006 5:42 pm

thanks mark.....I just love this post. It is opening more eyes to the keyless concept.And i dare say, most who actually knock the keyless, have never sat behind one. Old traditions, either good or bad, are hard to give up. But i think most will agree, that as far as cabinet drop, detuning, accuracy..a good keyless design has it all over the heavy noisy, high maintenance dinosaurs of yesterday. But with tooling being so costly..why should someone like Carter steels, who are doing well, change everything over, because a few guys want keyless? and on we go.....and keyless is way kool......page 2

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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar, Boyette Glass Bar, Carvin Guitars, & Amplification, and other neat stuff, and a 165 Pound Great Pyrenees..
I was keyless, when keyless wasn't cool...

[This message was edited by George Redmon on 10 May 2006 at 06:55 PM.]

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 10 May 2006 8:16 pm

Excellent example of a FINE guitar. That Whitney is way ahead of it's time. Great pictures and posting!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 10 May 2006 8:27 pm

If someone could build me an 8-string 8/2 keyless I'd probably jump right on it if I could afford it. It seems like the natural progression of the instrument from a mechanical basis. And I really would love to see proof of the significance...like even proving they are even audible...of peghead "overtones" in the sound of the instrument, other than the energy loss. that's been proven - haven't seen anything about these mysterious overtones that some people hear.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 May 2006 4:34 am

For me personally, I happen to think Keyless Steels are NOT attractive..

And I am allowed to think that..
there are no rules...

I love to LOOK at fine Instruments, Keyless included...

I love the clean bright glissening Chrome Tuner Heads...

I think we should leave the discussion about resonance, overtones etc..to those that have spent there entire lives building Instruments...

Lets throw this into the mix..

I have read countless threads where it is claimed that brand X is the absolute best..tone, quality..endurance, whatever..
Built by a true Craftsman..maybe the best there is...

and guess what..

It's not a Keyless Steel...

This is not to say that some very fine Craftsman are not building fine Keyless Steels. They are, and the photo above is evident...

IF the market and the players demanded a Keyless Steel, and the OTHER builders agreed with all the hyperbia above..

they would be building them...

IF you want to come to my house and argue with me that my two D10's with 20 tuning keys each, cannot rise to the occasion..then so be it..

but it will be on deaf ears...

Yeh I know, someone will state that I don't know what I am missing..

well I don't eat Turnips either....

T
From the school of :

I like what I like...
I play what I play...
Keys or no keys, I still gotta practice...

I pay for my Instruments, you pay for yours...

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite


[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 11 May 2006 at 05:36 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 11 May 2006 at 05:37 AM.]

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 11 May 2006 6:07 am

Jim S...re "proof"...what would you consider as proof? In what format would you like it? Proof is just being persuaded..different folk are persuaded by different things.

Some are swayed by anothers opinion = by the way that they phrase things...by the reasoning they use...by handwaving "cutely" worded verbosity...by a statement from an "authority"...by traces from instrumentation...by computer program results; each has their own set of preferences.

And then there is the degree = probable...beyond a shadow...etc..

In the end, what you hear and what you see, modified by the evidence presented will be used to make "your" decision.

What would you accept as "proof"?

jolynyk · Post by **jolynyk** » 11 May 2006 6:09 am

This topic is like beating a dead horse.. you'll never convince the die hard keyed players, even if they're wrong .. It's like, "I like my Chev",(even tho' on a quiet night you can hear them rust), no the new dodge trucks are ugly regardless how well they do the job, & you'll never convince a Ford man that there are any other brands out on the road.. reading all posts, some say "I just got my new Rains, (best guitar I've ever played)", "I just got my new Emmons , WOW", "I just got my new Williams The best there is", "Just recieved my new Zum, best guitar on the market",& "you should see the new Star" etc. etc. So after seeing this, I came to the conclusion that there are no bad guitars out there.. They're all great, even the old Sho Buds.. Tone & beauty is in the eye & ear of each individual, The great players all sound great regardless what they play..I don't think many would know if Tom Brumley recorded with a keyed or a keyless, with or without overtones..I don't see any posts by the greats, Emmons, Hughey, Wright, White etc. putting any posts here saying my Williams is ugly. "Your GFI looks ugly", etc. Professionalism??? You don't like it, don't buy it. Lots of choices these days.. I can just see the looks on a guy's face, that just bought a new keyless Excel, & is right proud of his new purchase, A guy goes to visit him, & says "I sure do like your new black guitar, but it's sure ugly".. Buy & play what a person likes to see & hear. If they sound & look great to the owner, who am I to say that your guitar looks ugly.. If you're happy with it & it does the job you want, great..
Your wife may be slim & a model, my wife may be fat & ugly, you love yours, & I love mine, & she fills the bill & does the job, nuff said.. lol

[This message was edited by jolynyk on 11 May 2006 at 07:24 AM.]

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 11 May 2006 8:10 am

Ouch!

jolynyk · Post by **jolynyk** » 11 May 2006 9:26 am

Hi Jon, let me tell you what OUCH really is.. I had an MSA, then bought a Zum, I asked my wife if it sounded any better, she answers, "you sound the same", so several years later I buy a Williams keyless.. Again I posed the same question to her.. Answer was the same.. It still sounds the same.. So my hero, & mentor Kenton Kolberg (a great steel player), was sitting in the audience, so during a break I goes up to him & posed the question to him.. How can I improve my tone.. His answer, "get somebody else to play your steel"....
That is OUCH......
Sheesh..

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 11 May 2006 10:10 am

Jolynyk...you got it nailed my good man...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>IF the market and the players demanded a Keyless Steel, and the OTHER builders agreed with all the hyperbia above..

they would be building them...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
they are building them....and new Chevy's, plasma TV's, ipods, black and white TV's worked just dandy... "he's an old hippy and he don't know what to do..should he hold on to the old..should he grab on to the new"......

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 11 May 2006 11:18 am

George, your killing me! It is true though. People can get stuck in a rut, and stay there, just because they do not know better!

I think the title of this thread should have been "Why Keyed?" or "Who is still stuck with keys?" or better yet, "Are you all keyed up?"

Bruce Wutzke · Post by **Bruce Wutzke** » 11 May 2006 11:22 am

Kenton is a wise man Johnny. He told me keyless is not what you needed...it was stringless.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 11 May 2006 12:21 pm

ed - proof is some sort of testing that demonstrates that the overtones people keep talking about are actually heard by the human ear. As said before, my guess is that there is just as much tonal difference between various keyed guitars as between any random keyed and keyless guitar comparison.

Sustain isn't even an issue, though - all else being equal (an important qualifier), a keyless will have greater sustain than a keyed guitar due to vibration energy loss on the keyed unit.

It still boils down to most of the tone being in the hands, though. A great player can make a lousy guitar sound good. Unfortunately, the reverse is also true. So there's probably some personal preference as far as look, and maybe a little voodoo about tone; maybe some biases based on early keyless designs. Who knows?

jolynyk · Post by **jolynyk** » 11 May 2006 12:25 pm

Thanks Bruce, I needed that.. But he's probably right (again).. When I took up fiddle years back, I practiced my bowing for 9 months, & pretty near cut that fiddle in half before somebody told me there were supposed to be strings on it, but even then nobody come along and said my fiddle was ugly, they may have thunk it, but never said it.. but I thought it was pretty.. When I ordered my steel, Bill never told me I had the option of strings or no strings.. would have still been OK, because then I wouldn't have worried about overtones with no strings.. problem solved..lol

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 May 2006 1:51 pm

Sustain isn't even an issue, though - all else being equal (an important qualifier), a keyless will have greater sustain than a keyed guitar due to vibration energy loss on the keyed unit.

Conventional wisdom states that more vibration is transfered to the body in a keyed guitar than in a keyless. Perhaps this is because the nut is closer to the center of the top of the guitar.

Furthermore, conventional wisdom states that the aforementioned keyhead vibration transfer increases sustainability by providing an acoustic feedback loop to the ringing string. You will find people here who are absolutely certain that a keyed guitars sustains longer than a keyless guitar, "all else being equal".

I sold a keyed Williams to buy a very similar keyless one. I noticed no difference between the two guitars' ability to sustain a note or chord. I did notice difference in timbre (overtones) which I attribute to the different body sizes and keyheads.

I cannot say that one sounds better than the other, though. They simply sound a little bit different from one another.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog [This message was edited by b0b on 11 May 2006 at 02:54 PM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 11 May 2006 3:32 pm

If you like to tinker with pedal copedants, here's something to consider.

Keyless = smaller cabinet = less available room for loading guitars with more pedals and knee levers. Because of how cramped the mechanics are on the loaded keyless, it's more difficult experimenting with new copedant ideas.

The player usually has to remove more parts that have nothing to do with the new experiment in order to make some needed working space. This problem happens alot less on keyed guitars.

Paul

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 11 May 2006 3:39 pm

That's a good point. I have 14 guitars -- Strats, Martins, Gibsons etc. I used to have 50. Each one does its own thing. Maybe steel guitars are like that too... an old Sho-Bud Professional, couple of push/pulls, a modern guitar and even a keless axe.

Compared to older -- vintage -- guitars, pedal steels are still not that expensive. You could probably put half a dozen in your music room for what the average country club golfer spends every year, not to mention people with a pair of season tickets to a pro sport facility.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 11 May 2006 3:57 pm

My keyless Sierra has a place pre-machined for a "0" pedal crossrod if desired, so the three pedals are in the same position as the keyed version. As are the five knee levers. In other words, the rod lengths are the same on both guitars. Plus, on my guitar, all the crossrods for all the pulls you could possibly add, are already machined so the cabinet size (at least on Sierra), does not matter. The copedant is very easy to change.
As you can see, the only place that is shorter than a keyed guitar is the spot to the left of the "0" crossrod

And on a GFI

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 11 May 2006 at 05:08 PM.][This message was edited by Curt Langston on 11 May 2006 at 05:10 PM.]

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 11 May 2006 4:41 pm

Curt....when you're right...you're right. Also true on other brands of keyless as well.You can play "Lets switch copedents" all day long on a Williams keyless as well.

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 11 May 2006 4:53 pm

Mr. Franklin, your point well taken. IMHO that is really the only drawback on the keyless design. However, I, for one, feel this is not enough to sway one's decision about going with a keyless steel. I change strings a lot more often than I change copedants and I carry my steel more often also. Thanks, Don

Kline steel, Webb amp[This message was edited by Don McClellan on 11 May 2006 at 05:56 PM.]

Ronnie Green · Post by **Ronnie Green** » 11 May 2006 6:16 pm

I like the keyless look, although I never owned one. It's like new cars, you just get used to em'. The thought and design in this type of guitar is a marvel in it's own.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 11 May 2006 6:32 pm

FWIW, Pauls comments about having more room sound more like a D10 vs. Uni thing to me (a point I think I would agree with).
Having both Keyed and Keyless Uni's (I've never owned a D10), and having done a good amount of copedant changes on all my steels over the years, the extra coupla inches in length in the keyhead direction never crossed my mind before reading his post today.
Just an observation.
Cool!

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 11 May 2006 6:39 pm

George and Curt,

Three pedals and five knee levers is not the loaded pedal steel I was referencing. I agree, There is no problem experimenting with a basic setup like yours because there is still plenty of unused room to place compensators and tunable half stops. When my copedant or Crawfords 10 and 10 with return compensators and tunable half stops throughout are used on a keyless guitar, there is definately a space problem.

The extra room left of the "O" position is where I have several tunable half stops with fairly large knobs for easy access. I have had those on my Emmons, Sho-Bud, MSA and current guitars. On Curt's guitar, with my setup, I would have to find another place for them somewhere in the midst of the pulling mechanics. Placing them in the middle crowds the pulling rods which is the issue I'm refering to. The left of "O" area is just so easy to use for placing tunable half stops and return compensators on keyed guitars.

Extra room on the underneath of any guitar is a plus.

Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 11 May 2006 at 07:43 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 11 May 2006 at 07:46 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 11 May 2006 at 08:48 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 11 May 2006 at 08:59 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 11 May 2006 at 09:09 PM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 11 May 2006 7:31 pm

Don,

Don't get me wrong I like the keyless idea. There are pros and cons to all types of guitars. Most pros and cons are subjective to our needs. What pleases one may not please the other.

Paul