Promat at Bobbe`s Sgn

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 7 Aug 2005 7:34 am

"Overpriced" is a totally subjective term, one that can't be quantified, which says more about the speaker than the item being described. It speaks to his feelings of value, the worth of a dollar, how he was raised about money vs. quality, etc.

If someone feels that something is "overpriced," that's simply his opinion and is completely valid to his value system. It just means that he doesn't see the product/cost ratio to be equal. It might be that although he could certainly afford the item, he's frugal and chooses not to purchase. It might mean that he's a man of limited means and simply can't afford it. It might mean that his daddy taught him never to buy something new when a used item has depreciated and is a better "value." All kinds of things.

I have a friend who is quite well-to-do, and can afford anything his little heart desires. He has a nice home, but drives a car with 170,000 miles on it ("practically brand new!.."

). He's looking for a used riding lawn mower. I told him to just spend $1500 and buy a new one, which has a warranty, less hassle, etc. "No way am I gonna spend $15 hundred on a new ANYTHING!" This guy's worth a couple million, yet... that's just the way he was raised. Which is a good quality to have, since he's a frugal man and an excellent provider for his family.

But if someone feels that an item is worth every bit of what the seller is asking, for whatever reason, then it's most definitely NOT "overpriced." That's simply the value that fellow attaches to the item, and it's completely correct in his value system.

Which should make none of us here on the Forum any never-mind at all. It's his money and it's his guitar, and if he's happy, it was a good deal.

I play Promat because it is an awesome push pull guitar with a great tone built by a dear friends of mine.Very simple.

Damir, I've purchased guitars... Fessendens... for those very reasons. The guy is an old and trusted friend of mine who builds a fine guitar. There are no better reasons to do so, IMHO.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 07 August 2005 at 08:48 AM.]

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 7 Aug 2005 8:10 am

It`s only expensive if you can`t afford it.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 7 Aug 2005 9:03 am

you guys are going to make me cry,I can`t believe I see some positive words...

Db

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

Tommy Roten · Post by **Tommy Roten** » 7 Aug 2005 11:17 am

Does the Promat company have a website?

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Franklin D-10, MSA D-10, Goodrich volped, Mesa Boogie Quad preamp, ProfexII, Mosvalve 1500, 2xEminence 12", Nashville 400,
www.tommy-steel.com
pertrot@frisurf.no

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 7 Aug 2005 11:49 am

Tommy,
for right now you can click on the link at my signature.That is just a little info until Promat get his own site up.I see you play Franklin.After I get my two Promats I want to order a Franklin for myself.Promat and Franklin for the house and recording and Carter or GFI for the road,I think that would pretty much be my set up and of course Hilton pedal with a Webb 614 and Session 500.Amps,Hilton and one Promat I already have so few more guitars and I`m done.Well,I would love to have a nice D 25 Martin and another Gibson banjo to acompany my Stelling Red Fox.huh, I better don`t quit my day job with this wish list..

Db

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 7 Aug 2005 2:45 pm

Damir....again, yoiu are making comments in response to mine as though I had a negative slant against Promat. I don't. I am simply engaging in a conversation about it's most recognizeable features...it's cost and it's design. Now, it is not untrue that the guitar is expensive....and it is also not untrue that the guitar is a near-exact replica of an existing guitar. I have not said that those are bad things....so why do you take comments about the guitar so personal? Geez...it's not like you build them or have a vested financial stake in the company....right?

the patent has expired long time ago,Emmons Co. stoppped making p/p anyway because it was too expencive, it was not what they wanted to do,they made biger profit with all pull guitars.

But the question I had was not regarding the patent on the original push-pull design/changer....Emmons Co. may just have a claim against the design of the guitar in total. In other words, GM can't go out and build an exact replica of a Ford and call it a Chevy....just as my luthier friend couldn't make an exact Bigsby replica and sell it without Gretsch's approval. Dig what I'm saying? I'm just curious to what extent Promat has been in contact with Emmons and what the Emmons Co. thinks about all this. I'm really just thinking out loud, as I doubt anyone here has the answer to that.

And, by the way, Emmons IS making those push-pulls again. So, the now have direct competition in the push-pull market....another interesting twist, in my eyes.

MSA and Anapeg ???I never said one bad thing about those guitars.

Who said you did? For that matter, neither have I...nor have I said anything bad about Promat.

It's just a discussion, Damir....again, I'm glad you like your guitar as much as you do, but questioning certain aspects of Promat's business does not mean that we're questioning your purchase or insulting you in any way....your replies seem to indicate that this is how you feel, though. Honestly...there's no need to feel that way.

Joe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 7 Aug 2005 4:24 pm

Ervie-poo, You got me this time, I deserved it! Ha! Ha!

Tom Quinn, no one could have expressed my feelings any better! Great post.

Herb, ditto, great thoughts.

Joe, I agree with everything you said, but I really wonder how many (If any) P-P guitars will come out of Burlington in the future? I'm hearing that the end is near, but let's hope not, and wish this famed old name manufacturer the best, regardless of who is at the helm guiding the ship through troubled waters. It kills me to think this company is going the path of so many other great manufacturers, ie ZB, Sho-Bud, etc.

By the way, I really love the tone that this thread has taken. You are a bunch of truly GREAT guys! I highly respect you all, Guess I'm the only dummy here now,
Bobbe

Gary Spaeth · Post by **Gary Spaeth** » 7 Aug 2005 5:28 pm

i have a 74 emmons catalog. a d10 cost 1500 no knees. with 4 knees and a case it would cost $2100. adjust that for inflation and a d10 would cost 8 to 10 grand. adjust at medical cost inflation and they'd probably cost a couple hundred grand. my clinic doubles its prices every year. [This message was edited by Gary Spaeth on 07 August 2005 at 08:11 PM.][This message was edited by Gary Spaeth on 07 August 2005 at 08:29 PM.]

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 7 Aug 2005 5:42 pm

why would Emmons Co. care about Promat on the first place?They gived up on producing a push pull mechanism long time ago.It is not profitable to make push pull guitars that is why.And a small shop in Europe that makes few push pull guitars a year that Emmons Co. does not want to make anymore is no competition anyway.It would be like Ford starting with a production of `58 Impala...it wouldn`t make any sence.What Promat is doing is pretty much a financial suicide from any normal business point of view,the thing is Mr.Papic is retired and lives of his retirement check,guitars are just a labor of love.I`m sure he makes a buck or two (after all expences),but I would not do what he does for that money.Nor would anyone else.Emmons made those last few push pulls using parts they collected around the shop (it would be interesting to know what are the serial # on those two cabinets)because it would be too expencive to make new ones.Promat does something that wont attract any investors,because what they do is not paying of.But they do it,because they love what they do and as long as there is a people who wants a new push pull.Mr.Papic was for as long as I know him,making guitars only for his closest friends,after I talked him into trying here in US (since there was no push pull guitars made since late 80`s) he started using help of his two sons.At this time Promat sells most of their guitars in Europe and they can care or less about anything else,it is actualy more complicated to deal with US market (customs,shipping,service..etc).The only reason why you know about the Promat is because of me,if there was not for me nobody would have a slightest idea that there is a small shop in Europe where you can order a brand spanking new push pull guitar of such a quality as is Promat.I tought it might be cool for the p/p players who would like a new guitar instead of a used one to have an option.All pull players can pick among many great guitars but push pull players were stuck on one and even than they could get only a used one.Can you imagine if there was as many push pull manufacturers as there is all pull?But there is none...but one.Why???Not profitable.Why Promat does it?Labor of love.Do we have to criticize or admire that one single trooper deep in Europe trying to keep the legacy and great tone of the push pull guitar alive.God bless him.

Db

WOW Gary,great point,I was typing my post while you were posting so I didn`t see it,but you explained in few words more than I could...(specialy since I don`t have `74 Emmons catalog...

..)Thank you.

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 07 August 2005 at 06:53 PM.]

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 7 Aug 2005 6:03 pm

And I would also want to thank to Mr.Bobbe Seymour and Steel Guitar Nashville for their support ,promotion and most of all for believing in this guitar.

Db

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 7 Aug 2005 6:21 pm

You are welcome Damir. I like the way you write, showing your European accent.

I think my writing shows my being born in the far north, and raised in the deep south. I'm all mixed up! But when your father is a jazz musician, you have to move when the rent comes due!

(just kidding, he did well,,, for a professional piano player anyway, Ha!)

Bobbe

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 7 Aug 2005 6:25 pm

yeah,I don`t know what is worst my accent or my spelling..

Db

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 8 Aug 2005 5:02 am

i have a 74 emmons catalog. a d10 cost 1500 no knees. with 4 knees and a case it would cost $2100. adjust that for inflation and a d10 would cost 8 to 10 grand.

Not quite....at 3% inflation per year, a $2,100 guitar in 1974 would be $5,250 today.

Gary Spaeth · Post by **Gary Spaeth** » 8 Aug 2005 5:54 am

gas prices are 4X what they were (60c/gal)then and real estate also. a house bought for 20,000 costs 100 grand today. i get 4 times what i got for a playing gig in 74 and you could buy a brand new truck for $5000. what are they now? 20,000?

Tommy Roten · Post by **Tommy Roten** » 8 Aug 2005 7:14 am

Damir, send me a mail when the official Promat website is up

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Franklin D-10, MSA D-10, Goodrich volped, Mesa Boogie Quad preamp, ProfexII, Mosvalve 1500, 2xEminence 12", Nashville 400,
www.tommy-steel.com
pertrot@frisurf.no

John Sluszny · Post by **John Sluszny** » 8 Aug 2005 11:45 am

Why "PROMAT"?

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 8 Aug 2005 7:21 pm

Because it is and it can, why not? Answer is obvious, it happens this way because cows can't drive very well. They just use their licences for identification.
Now you know, "Why Promat"!

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 9 Aug 2005 5:10 am

Well...the "Promat" won't have really "made it" until people start spelling the name wrong...so allow me to be the first.

Pro-Mat
Promatt
Pro-Matt
Promatte

There!!!!

Joe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 9 Aug 2005 5:52 am

Joe, you forgot "Promats", you know, like everyone puts an "S" on the end of "Mullen"
("Mullen")

You are correct though, until it's misspelled, it hasn't been totally promoted!

Hurry up and get sown here!
Bobbe

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 9 Aug 2005 6:28 am

if you want to keep things neighborly round here better not talk about Promats, Robert Randolph & even still Jerry Garcia
i guess the right newbie has'nt appeared yet....

just to say i'm tickled pink to know that a darn good psg is comin' outta Croatia
Holy Moses, it's the middle ages over there
how could they do such a thing ?

only 2 alternatives :
Come on over to the Dalmatian Riviera
or pop in on at SGN
& try a Promat

John Sluszny · Post by **John Sluszny** » 9 Aug 2005 10:40 am

...and Dubrovnik is one of the loveliest place on earth...

Rex Thomas · Post by **Rex Thomas** » 9 Aug 2005 6:29 pm

Wow, Joe! Carry the torch, you ol' smoothie.
One should maybe know better than to take on a CPA, but it does make for jolly reading.
As for me I don't see the Promat as a copy as much as I do a TRIBUTE. All things considered, it doesn't seem worth the trouble to create a stink over a steel that replicates the best in its day. Stay tuned I guess.
But I think the Promats that Bobbe sells should have four Kunas on the front (not the currency, the animals), oh, & they most certainly should be animated. Take it from there.
Take care, Joe. Still want to see that Zum.

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 9 Aug 2005 6:44 pm

Downunder it would be known as a ProMate !!

Jon Zimmerman · Post by **Jon Zimmerman** » 9 Aug 2005 9:10 pm

We ought to call this thread a PROLONG. My perspective? It should be considered a tribute--Its got the physique, mystique, and it FER SHORE is boutique! And Damir, I admire you for standing your ground, even in minefields like these.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 10 Aug 2005 3:23 pm

Promats are only expensive in the USA,
because of the ridiculous exchange rate at present.

Mr. Papick has no control over that.

In europe they are quit reasonably priced compared to most steels,
and they have a sound WAY above most others here.

If you have never played one,
you really can't make and objective comment about them.

As Bobbe said, he has several vintage PPs at various price points,
and he STILL sells a few Promats...
to serious players.
That alone should speak for itself.

And I have yet to see one post by someone who HAS played one,
that didn't rave about the sound, the feel, and the quality.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 10 August 2005 at 04:25 PM.]