anybody else tune straight up 440?

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 16 Jan 2005 2:26 pm

No, of course "every note" is NOT tuned to 440,only the one that needs to be at that frequency is. Again, if a certain frequency within a tight voicing, lets say within an octave or less, is detuned to perhaps de-emphasize beats or whatever, when played with other tones, then this is where the problem begins. If an E pitch is flattened in its role as the third tone in a C Major triad but then the same E note is used as the Root in an E major Triad that means you would then have to detune the new 3rd, G#. At this point you are on an impossible mission and a tuning nightmare beyond comprehension has now began. Unless you only play no more then 2 notes at a time on your Steel, EVER, then no amount of bar manuevering can correct an already out of tune instrument. At that point, heavy vibrato is often the "weapon of choice" (another overused IMHO, technigue) much as it is for singers who cannot hold a true pitch for long. The best "compromise" to all of this is, in my opinion,to tune "straight up". And as Eric said, to "learn" or get used to hearing tones such as 3rds., a little sharper.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 16 Jan 2005 2:36 pm

Yep DD, the stretches at each end have been taken care of my electonic calculation. The old felt strip, rubber wedged Fischer Method Itinerant Piano Tuner is a dinosaur. Unlike Hardwood Speedboat Builders, though, they sadly won't have a reniassance.

Maybe if somebody created a magical method of tuning keyboards, and guitars thirds. sixths, etc all flat to match you'd have something that was 'pleasing to your ears'.

As far as the Pedal Steel Guitar being able to play "perfectly" in Just Intonation, don't kid yourself. You at best only have bits and pieces of "perfection" strung together with vibrato, and passing dissonance, and the underlying premise that "single notes" played out of the context, "don't matter anyway".

All in all though, it's as close as anybody's come without computerized interference. I'll grant it that.

In the Baroque Period, as I'm sure Mr Doggett can attest it was done on certain songs, and arrangments tuning each instrument specifically for the song, key, or passage.

The problems inherent in it were "solved" by "Equal Tempermant" to the degree it was possible. I'm sure there was carnage and bloody resistance.

The problems we have with other instruments like piano and guitar being "severly sharp" to this detuning method can only be solved with intimidation, obfuscation or violence. None of which seem to work well on a long term basis.

Sometimes only a couple nights or weeks is enough though, or a few hours in a studio session.

Here's yet another plea for getting bashed by any swamper with a computer:

Play your JI AB pedal, Play your JI E lower, Play your JI AF combo Play the JIMaj7 starting on the 9th string. Play your chord substitutions like two frets down, three frets up. Then do some Diminished triads, augmented chords. Move them around. Then play some scales starting on different string, or he linear runs tht are common. Think what you're playing is all JI?

You may indeed be very close on some things. I'm sure there are involved systems to get all of the "Big Three" chords that way but you're going to have "holes" bigger than 20 cents all the time. If nothing else with single note stuff.

Then try to find a gig where the guitar is tuned that way. You won't.

Nor a piano of any kind unless they are tuned to "one key".

If that new "computer beatless" piano system works at all, you can bet it "turns off" on single notes, and has to be fed the chordal information when playing out of the harmonized scale. Nice try though, I'm certainly not a luddite.

As Mr Gregory stated, NO other serious instrumental group or community has these discussions.

It's interesting that it's happened here to this degree.

It's gotten to the point where people are regularly calling it something that it isn't. Some of them pretty famous.

But then that's what happens when nobody speaks up.

God help those that do unless they're Buddy Emmons.

Now you've got beginners finding this place and are not able to tune their instruments with the "information" they find here. The find it "confusing".

Check the "Setup for dummies" thread.

I guess it's not that important though.

We got ours..

And people wonder why it's a "dying instrument...

EJL,

Another admission:

I DO adjust myself "out of tune" when I'm at home sometimes to "please my ear" or more than likely, to accommodate my failing change stops on my wore out PIII and the worsening "cabinet drop". I honestly tune my thirds "by ear" as close as my fifths. My new one will be here in a couple weeks. I'm ready for it.

I don't call it something that it's not however. Then when I go out to "play with others" I do them the courtesy of tuning "in tune" with them, and work my changer before the first set to get it "set in". It makes it easier to play in tune with them.

It's only as hard to defend and define as I want it to be though, so not to worry for those wanting somebody to belittle.

I'll still tune up, and play with other people. God willing.

[This message was edited by Eric West on 16 January 2005 at 02:42 PM.]

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 16 Jan 2005 3:48 pm

Then if the piano isn't tuning every note to 440 and the steel IS tuning every note to 440, you wouldn't be in tune with the piano?

So, we have to tune each open string and pedal to each matching key (note) on the keyboard? Isn't this just the biggest confusing mess?

I've tried a few different JI tuning charts. Some didn't sound good with or without the band. So, I've settled on a JI that seems to fit my ear and in alignment with the minimal cabinet drop on my guitar. And seems to blend well with other instruments. And depending on the pedal combinations, ending up a frog hair above a fret when necessary to make it fit with the band. And of course, a little vibrato with my concerto.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 16 Jan 2005 5:02 pm

Interesting.

And I suppose that before too long somebody's going to remind us that the ONLY note that's tuned to "440hz" is the A. Besides the intonation, the "A" was also lower in the "baroque period". Then higher in "Venetian" understandings.

I am going to write Seiko, Korg, and Conn emails, and find out how far out of strict mathematical exactitude my lower and upper octaves are. I'll post my replies.

I know my Low A is in Octave 1, and the high A at the 24th fret B Pedal down is in octave 6. I have a hard time telling if there are any 'beats' between the two. It seems to me about a fret off between the octave 1 A and the octave 6 A.

According to tempered piano tuning charts as posted easlier, the psg fits well inbetween octave 1 and octave 6. The only "Tuning" you'll do is between the Low A in octave 1 and the high A in octave 4. To that end, the lower A in octave 1 to be in tune with standard piano tempering would be down about 10 cents. That's still less by 5 that notes in the same octave have to be detuned to "sound nice" to those "J.I.ers". Everything else by "this chart"

is within 10 cents for the length of the whole 5 or 6 octaves on my guitar. You'd have to ask Mr Hughey what happens in Hughey Land.

I know pianos and guitars are not tuned "perfectly", but if you use the same tuning system of Equal Tempermant, you're not going to be 5 cents off in the range you play with them in.

If a person detunes themselves 15 cents within one octave, and doesn't know what will happen within two, let alone 5, or have some way to explain it besides "Mr Thus and Such, tunes this way" or wrote a chart on how to do it, well....

Guitar players:

Do you tune the beats out between your G and your B string? Why not? Do you tune your B string lower, and then get half the beats out between it and your 7th fret E string harmonic? If you tune your G string higher, your G# is going to be too sharp, and because of the most common guitar intonation problem, you're going to be sharp already. That reason alone is why I have a REAL hard time detuning my G#. I've worked with guitar players for 25 years, and besides using spiderweb strings, very few had non sharpened G#s.

I've been searching for a way for JIers to explain this whole thing in the abscence of the most famous,intelligently glib, or devastatingly insulting of them being able to do it.

As close as I can come is using at least a 48 note scale, and If I had time, I'd map out the 4 times more flats and sharps they'd have to use for each key.

At least then they'd have something to hand piano and/or guitar players to explain their "system".

All piano players have to do is hand them a copy of This.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 16 January 2005 at 05:07 PM.]

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 16 Jan 2005 7:58 pm

If "everything" is tuned to 440 all the pitches would be the same A.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Jan 2005 8:06 pm

I had asked if anyone tunes ET by ear. Eric replied: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If I want to do it fast, I don't count the beats as much and just go for what is in my memory until I can get tuned by a correct tuner. The G#s get a "sparkle" and the F#s match the Bs with the Eb inbetween.

I just tried it while I posted, and I got within 7 cents on the worst of it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Within 7 cents? WITHIN 7 CENTS? I tune everything but my F lever within 7 cents of the zero mark, and I'm nowhere near equal temperament. I wonder if we're talking about the same thing here...

Sorry for the delayed response - I was in Arizona listening to some very nicely tuned pedal steels all weekend.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 16 January 2005 at 08:08 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 16 Jan 2005 11:11 pm

Geez b0b. That's the first time I've seen you shout.

Yes.

BY EAR. THAT'S WHAT YOU ASKED ME.

I TESTED MYSELF, AND TUNED "STRAIGHT UP" USING ONLY AN E NOTE. I DID IT BY EAR.

The Bs were within 2, the low G# believe it or not as dead on, with the high one a little sharp.

On a slam bang night with a full no break set list, from dead cold, I don't ask much more using a tuner.

The F#s tuned to the Bs as a fifth were right on too, and somehow I got the Eb adjusted right too with "third beats" from the high B string.

I use the same process with the pedals. No beats in the fifths, (.75ps) a bunch in the thirds, and none in the octaves. I'll do it too if you ask me and don't shout.

THE ONE I GOT 7 CENTS OUT WAS THE LOW D. I tune it as the root of the low F# as a third", and I just spaced it out.

NOT HERTZ, CENTS.

That's pretty damn close by ear.

If I'd have turned on the old "fuzz tone" and tuned the beats out like y'all claim is the way to be in tune, at least the G#s would be a full FIFTEEN CENTS OFF.

I'm beginning to thing you and Mr Gambrell are just looking for ways to let this tuning thing drive you crazy. I"m going to stay out of the latest Robert Randolph War hoping somebody else can "help him".

My friend Mr Doggett's just along for the ride, and will jump out before youse get there.

Tune the way you want.

Actually if it'll help. I don't care if you call it "in tune" or not.

If it'd make you feel better, I'll say that the way you say you tune is in tu.... intun... i..... in t.....

Well anyway, It's fine with me.

I've done my best.

Sorry about the shouting. It's contagious.

Oh b0b. What AM I going to do with you?

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 17 Jan 2005 5:52 am

Edits make one appear to be clever, if only by afterthought.

My steel, and the rest of my guitars, are in tune. They may or may not match tuners--I've sold, or given my tuners away.

I slept really well last night.

Thank God for Martin Luther King.

Thanks to my parents for the gift of music, for not being too critical, and for teaching me the RIGHT way to do things.

A special shout out to the choir at the West Main Street Church of God, where I learned to sing harmony, in tune, at a very young age.

And FINALLY, a special thanks to the ZB fans, without whom THIS would be the longest, most boring thread on the Forum. But don't be discouraged, Mr. Lundgren. It looks like you'll at least be tied within a couple of weeks.

"People who think they know everything sure make the world difficult for those of us who actually do."
Einstein [This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 17 January 2005 at 05:54 AM.][This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 17 January 2005 at 05:55 AM.][This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 17 January 2005 at 06:04 AM.][This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 17 January 2005 at 06:06 AM.][This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 17 January 2005 at 06:06 AM.][This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 17 January 2005 at 06:24 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 17 Jan 2005 7:19 am

Well I think maybe people see stirring up trouble for no reason for what it is.

Good luck with your RR thread though..

At least at your latest edition, you do appear clever, if not amicable.

Don't worry about the tuners.

After all they're just another earthly thing.

Not worth getting all hung up on.

Have a nice MLK Day.

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 17 Jan 2005 9:05 am

"Well I think maybe people see stirring up trouble for no reason for what it is. "

Is that why this thread is up to 134 posts in less than a week?

"At least at your latest edition, you do appear clever, if not amicable."

Appearances can be deceiving. Those who get the last word in, often appear to be the most clever----at least to the faint of heart, or the self-absorbed.

Satisfied?

[This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 17 January 2005 at 09:08 AM.]

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 17 Jan 2005 10:36 am

Bobby Bare recorded a Shel Silverstein song that says it best for all.

"Now you remind me alot of my younger days with your knuckles a-clenchin'white
But boy, I'm gonna sit right here and sip this beer all night
And if there's somthin' that you gotta gain or prove by winnin' some silly fight
Well, OK, I quit, I lose you're the winner."

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 17 Jan 2005 11:20 am

I try to tune as close to ET as possible; however, I can't say that all notes are tuned "straight up" when the tuner is set to "440". On the E9 tuning I tune all of the open notes straight up with the tuner set to 441. When I press both the A and B pedals, the E's drop a bit. I can set my tuner to 440 now, with the pedals down, and the E's are pretty much straight up. Now I tune the C#'s and the A's straight up with the tuner set at 440.

What I try to do is keep the beats out of these intervals:

E > B
B > F#
C# > F#
C# > G#
D# > G#

About the only audible beats are on the thirds. At home, if I let them, the thirds will bother me. On the bandstand, they seem to blend just fine with the way our two guitarists tune their guitars. I also haven't noticed any clash with any other pickers I've played with.

Back when I was flatting my thirds a bit, I would notice some dissonance when I would play a chord that was voiced the same as the chord a guitar player was playing. For instance, I would hit a D chord at the 5th fret, pedals down, strings 4, 5, and 6 and the guitar player strummed a big open D chord on his guitar. We would both look at each other, convinced the other guy really needed to re-tune his guitar. It happened enough that one evening I had him tune his guitar with my tuner. We also checked the intonation on his guitar, with my tuner, to make sure the bridge was adjusted correctly. Everything checked out just fine. After tuning my guitar he and I started checking chords. It was always the thirds that clashed.

One day Michael Douchette (What ever happened to Mikey?) told me that Buddy Emmons was tuning "straight up" and was happy with it. Michael said he was doing that in the studio and was happy with it. I started tuning that way and the dissonance between my guitar and the guitar players' guitars went away. That was many years ago and I'm still tuning the way I mentioned above.

It works for my 51 year old ears!

Lee, from South Texas

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 17 Jan 2005 12:39 pm

Well, after being in a state of total confusion about this topic for quite a while, whether anyone else agrees with me, or not, the late Jeff Newman offered me the best solution. I am tuning strictly with those tuning charts and my ability to play in tune with the band has finally happened. Not only can I hear it, but so can everyone else. With these run on sentences already stated, "it works for me". The most dramatic difference is that I don't "feel" out of tune and I'm not compensating (or attempting to compensate) with my bar. Some of the comments I've read from prominent players is playing with confidence. I'm confident it works for me. Each to their own method. I am resigned that this is what I need to do. Maybe, we each need to resign ourselves to a method and stick with it until we "think" we need to do something different. Between this and "TONE", I truely believe as I get better, so does the tone and the tuning issues. For now, I have one resolution made for 2005. Tune using the late, Great, Jeff Newman tuning charts.

Thank you Jeff!!!!

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 17 Jan 2005 12:49 pm

Randy Beavers tuning method. I saw him with my own eyes tuning with a Peterson tuner just a couple of days ago in Mesa, AZ. I don't know what he does in other states though.

Delbert Aldredge · Post by **Delbert Aldredge** » 18 Jan 2005 5:02 pm

Terry, you sure opened a can of worms. The better tuning chart for "440" is published by non other than "Jeff Newman". Go to his web page and print the chart for free.

Check your 4th & 8th string, they should be tuned to "442.5". Chime the 5th and 8th string (one at a time) with the 4th string @ 12 fret and feel the vibs. Tune the 3d & 6th strings with your "E's" until the "vibs" sync. follow this procedure with remaining strings. It's simple to stay in tune once you feel with the vibes!

Happy playing!!!!

Delbert

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 18 Jan 2005 5:50 pm

I think I'm going to start doing it what way too.

Those other instruments are always out of tune anyhow.

Thanks Jeff.

Wherever you are..

EJL

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 18 Jan 2005 8:58 pm

Ok!

I've been experimenting the past few days with the JI and 440 straight up. How about trying this:
Since Buddy tempers his G#s for drift. And since the 3rds seem to be the big culprit:
Tune your E's with AB pedals down to find your cabinet drop number. Eg. my E's are 441.
F#s = 442
D# = 438
G# = 438
E = 440 (when A&B pedals are down)
B = 440
G# = 438
F# = 442
E = 440 (when A&B pedals are down)
D = 442
B = 440
Tune your B pedal (A notes to 438)
Tune your A pedal (C# notes to 438)
Tune Eb lever to 439
Tune F lever to 436 YIKES!
This should get all major triad pedal and knee combination 3rd tones into a slightly, but consistent flatted from 440 JI tuning.

And everyone goes home ALMOST happy?...except for that nasty old F lever. It just seemed to loosen the wallpaper on the wall in front of my guitar when I got near 440

DD

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 18 Jan 2005 9:14 pm

When some piano manufacturing genius puts compensators on pianos and guitars, then we can play in tune

Or just crank up that old B3 and let it warble around the pitch. Better yet, I'll get out the old Chorus stomp box and set it to warble between 438 and 442 and cover all the bases?
DD

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 18 Jan 2005 9:42 pm

Well, by the Jeff Newmann chart on his site, you tune the F lever to 435.5, or 18 cents flat You'll be fine.

By the chart if you play the B string non pedaled (442hz by the chart) you're only 26 cents out between the two. It's only a seventh chord. Then if you play the augmented chord with the F lever/ A/B pedal, your augmented fifth is only augmented 22 cents out. Hell, it's augmented anyway.

I'm thinking I'm going to find a lot more out of tune guitars and electronic keyboards than I thought.

Hmm...

I should have found this chart a long time ago.

EJL

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 18 Jan 2005 10:19 pm

phooy, just start your attack a half step down and slide into where you're going. By the time you get there, go to the next chord change and repeat the proceedure. No one will notice you're out of tune by then. With that warbling B3 backing you up, it sounds perfect.

DD

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Jan 2005 11:37 pm

You guys aren't good enough at sarcasm for this room.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 19 Jan 2005 6:54 am

Do I detect some dissonance?

EJL

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 19 Jan 2005 6:56 am

Besides, if you're playing on a flat bed truck you could have the driver vary the speed and take advantage of the Doppler Effect™.

A Leslie, to a lesser degree would produce the same thing if the speed was varied.

EJL

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 19 Jan 2005 7:20 pm

Or mount a 3 speed window fan to the front of your amp. I'm a cheapie!
DD

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 26 Jan 2005 12:47 pm

Here's why I tune JI.

Check these out, one is ET, one is JI, let your ears be the judge.

example 1

example 2

------------------
www.tyack.com
[This message was edited by Dan Tyack on 26 January 2005 at 12:49 PM.]