anybody else tune straight up 440?

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 9 Jan 2005 3:05 pm

Ever since I started back playin the steel, I have been usin a tuning chart I got off the web from one of the Pros,Since everbody on the steel forum seem to think tuning to 440 was wrong. Last night I carried my steel to the church and decided to tune straight 440 just to see if I would sound more, or less, in tune with the piano. And I sound more in tune now than when I was usin the chart, no doubt in my mind.
are there any more 440 tuners out there?
Am I not in tune if I tune to 440?

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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 500rd
steelin for my Lord

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 9 Jan 2005 3:17 pm

I'm a pretty green steeler, so I'm not sure if my improved intonation is a mere result of myself becoming more acustomed to playing the pedal-steel.
Never the less I started out trying to tune to a chart, which was rather difficult as my tuner is a pretty crude digital display missing the accuracy of a dial-instrument.
Recently I thought aaah hell with it and began to tune straight up. It's my impression that I'm more in tune now than ever.

Now the big question is, if the improvement comes from straight up being more accurate than my halfhearted attempts to tune to a chart ever was, or if this instrument simply is more in tune when going with the "straight up" approach than anything else. I just might try to go with the chart again when/if I ever find it nessesary to get a dial-tuner (or a Peterson maybe - Quite expensive), and see if that improves anything.
Right now it's pretty sweet to my hearing, which have a reputation of being splendid.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 9 Jan 2005 3:22 pm

Am I not in tune if I tune to 440?

I don't know; I'd have to hear ya

When questioning yourself; Wheather you sound in tune or not\, all depends on the ability of your own ear.
Ricky

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 9 Jan 2005 3:49 pm

Terry,

There are probably as many opinions on this as there are steelers.

In direct answer to your question, I am one of the hard-headed old codgers that tunes almost straight 440. I lower my thirds (3rd note of major chord scale) about 4 or 5 cents since, to my ears, that seems best. I suggest you not worry about opinions and advice and just tune to whatever seems best to you.

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Visit my Web Site at RoysFootprints.com
Browse my Photo Album and be sure to sign my Guest Book.[This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 09 January 2005 at 03:49 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 9 Jan 2005 4:39 pm

I tune "straight up" 440. All the Strings, All the Changes.

You might notice that some changes act differently when cold, and require less pull to get them true, or in other words, are sharp, until the strings warm up, but that's all. I keep a wrench handy for those "one set" opening or fair acts.

I've played thousands of gigs with many many bar bands, and being "out of tune" is not one of the things I'm known for.

I have other faults.

I started that way out of not knowing that there was such a thing as tuning off what's represented by tuning forks, and the generally available tuners such as the Conn Strobe, and the decades newer electronic tuners, like Korg, Boss, Seiko, Yamaha, Fender.

Then I discovered a whole bunch of people that detune parts of their chords to meet their liking. Some of them are pretty famous. Some of them are not.

I haven't found any fault with Buddy Emmons' tuning, and he's been tuning that way for twenty years. That's good enough for me.

If you want my advice, at a level of less than a couple years of playing, any time spent diverting yourself from practicing, and developing complex ways of tuning and manipulating your changes to these "beatless chords", which from what I've seen, never ends, is time you could and should better spend learning to play with deliberation, a minimum of bar shaking, and clean blocking technique. In other words learning to develop a technique for playing in tune.

All of the time, and effort on these complex tuning systems, charts and reciprocating compensationers is all in the toilet when you play on stage with a perfectly tuned piano, guitar, bass, fiddle anyhow, so do yourself a favor. Tune straight up.

If you work hard at it, you will find that your ear actually becomes trained to expect to hear the correct amount of oscillation in major chords.

It doesn't happen overnight, and is always subject to some bonehead telling you that you can't because he never took the time. It can take upwards of ten years of steady playing without diverting yourself to 'beatlessness'.

The reason, and the ONLY reason I have taken exception to these "modern tuning systems" is that I remember as a young player starting out, had Bud Charleton in the two years I studied with him told me that I had to learn all these complex detuning methods, and then have to spend most of the rest of my life trying to explain why the "E" in my C6 neck was 15 cents flat to what everybody else in the band was playing, and still swear that I was "in tune" I would have flat out given up.

Trying to convince a guitar played that his G#s are out of tune because your are 15 cents flat is a little easier, but you'll get called on it sooner or later.

I'm glad it was made "Simple" if not easy from the very beginning.

Anybody that makes this task of playing in tune so monumental, while insisting that you must tune <blink>anything </blink>fifteen cents flat, to a new pedal steel player player, just trying to get things started, to use a biblical metaphor, should tie a millstone to his or her neck and head for deep water.

In other words for poor readers, it's not fair to new players to have to spend years before their picks even hit the strings, getting things to match in systems that at best deal only with major chords, and no single notes out of the positional context, and after a couple years, to get out on the bandstand with ET instruments and realise that "something's not quite right". Having a guitar or keyboard player ask you whar "you are using for an E" on your C neck, and then trying to explain why you are in tune, and they aren't.

Tune straight up, and work on your "playing" is a lot simpler and will waste less of their lives. Then, a person can always regress and figure out where they can get away with detuning their strings to "tune out beats".

Oh, apon editing, I suppose a non pedal steel guitar would be easier to get things to "match up", but it's not a "non pedal" question. You don't have 5 or more positions in one fret to match up.

The most famous marksman used a sling and a rock though, unlike some, I wasn't there.

Ear training again.. If somebody says you can't train your ears to hear chords with the 'correct' anount of beats in "ET", they may be right. Lots of people can't. Especially if they never trained themselves that way. It does't matter how famous they are or were.

I guess there must be a lot of people that think that Buddy Emmons' recording for the last twenty years, sounds out of tune to them. Don't ask me to tell you that the earlier stuff sounded "out" to me. I have a life that I have come to appreciate.

(Slow down some tracks to 25%speed and tell yourself which of the top players sounds out of tune. Don't post it here though. You won't live through the rat packing.)

It's hard enough without telling them they have to use a minimum of 43 scale to play like Jeff Newmann, of Paul Franklin. Don't you think<blink>?</blink>

I've gotten about all the answers I need to the question.

I got them from Mr Emmons directly since it was my thread that he answered to.

Others had some pretty interestion theories, and personal asessments, but I don't have time for all the nuance. I'm surprised they seem to all things considered..

There you go Terry, you have my opinion.

Regardless of the cost.

EJL

PS.

I'm glad to see that more people that "Tune Straight Up" are coming out and admitting it.

It's really not hard to defend and explain something that's simple, no matter how much complexity is thrown at us. It's just the vehemence of it that is a little daunting, I'll have to admit.

As I've said before, 'Complexity' could have very well been one of the Seven Deadly Sins, had the other ones not worked out so well." It's very attractive and has many devoted and esteemed followers.

[This message was edited by Eric West on 09 January 2005 at 06:45 PM.]

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 9 Jan 2005 5:09 pm

Always straight up 440 for over 35 years. Before that I didn't have an electronic tuner.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 9 Jan 2005 5:17 pm

I tune straight up for sessions and I tune JI for live.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 9 Jan 2005 5:26 pm

I do, but other than that I've been told I'm a really nice guy.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 9 Jan 2005 6:11 pm

Anybody that makes this task of playing in tune so monumental, while insisting that you must tune anything fifteen cents flat, to a new player, just trying to get things started, to use a biblical metaphor, should tie a millstone to his or her neck and head for deep water.

Disclaimer: No PSG references ...

I jumped at the opportunity ... in the early 80's ... to take lessons from Jerry Byrd via coorespondance.

I would complete a lesson ... send a cassette to him ... he would critique it ... send a letter back ... yada, yada, yada.

The very first lesson/song was Sweet Lei Lehua in A Maj tuning ...

I was so proud. I had made sure my strings were new, yet warmed up. I had a new Korg tuner ... made sure all my strings were perfectly in tune (straight up) ... made 20 takes ... checked the tuning after each take ... picked the best one ... and sent it.

I got his usual handwritten letter ... less than a week later ... I got it right here .

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Hi Rick, I played your cassette, but had to turn it off after the first few bars.

Your strings are so out of tune ... I can't listen to it.

Learn to tune by "Just Intonation" ... your guitar must be first and formost, in tune with itself.

Send that lesson again, once you have learned how to tune your guitar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was devastated ... but set off to learn what this "Just Intonation" was ... I had no idea what it was, JB didn't explain it in the letter (his video wouldn't be out for 7 more years) ... no Internet ... just the library.

Well, I figured it out ... tuned up ... and sent it off ...

Got a handwritten letter back in less than a week ...

Hi Rick, At least you have learned how to tune up, now ......

He launched into about a million things to fix ... and this continued for several years.

I "re-live" that moment/letter ... each time I see one of these JI vs ET threads ...

NO ONE can say he didn't play in tune with his band ... and that experience showed that he cared very much ... how his students tuned the open strings.

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Aiello's House of Gauss


My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

frank rogers · Post by **frank rogers** » 9 Jan 2005 6:13 pm

Bob Simmons · Post by **Bob Simmons** » 9 Jan 2005 6:31 pm

straight up will screw up your ear. 3rd tones and cromatics always tune flat. Guess what-- if you tuned to a piano you tuned tempered- pianos are not straight up

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 9 Jan 2005 6:46 pm

Now Pianos are tuned to "Just Intonation"?

Whatever....

EJL

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 9 Jan 2005 7:45 pm

Play fast and furious. Don't let a note linger long enough for anyone to judge it!

Terry

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 9 Jan 2005 8:13 pm

WEll If I was going to tune a certain way because a Legend told me he does it a certain way; I would choose Jerry Byrd and Lloyd Green, who have never played an out of tune note on record. They DO NOT tune all notes straight up; they have developed their ears to hear perfect intonation between notes and that doesn't work out to be straight up 440 on every open note or changed note.
The steel guitar is not a fixed string instrument or a fretted instrument; as it is played "BY EAR"; so learn to tune by ear; and then you will learn to play by ear and in tune.
Ricky

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 9 Jan 2005 8:53 pm

Well, I'm 55 yrs old might near, but I still got a purty good ear for instruments that are in tune, or out of tune. And ain't no doubt my steel sounds more in tune straight up 440, than it did with the chart i was usin. So, I'm satisfied.
Hey! It's a lot quicker and easier to!

Terry

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Zum D10 /8x5 / session 500rd
steelin for my Lord

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 9 Jan 2005 9:17 pm

OK Explain this and I'm not complaining.

I tuned all three necks to an A 440 tuning fork in my room in St.Louis. When I got up on the bandstand I was 1/2 tone flat and spent 5 minutes trying to get all three necks
1/2 higher in pitch. Do you know how embrassed I felt? How come? Why was the band 1/2 tone higher than each string on my triple neck?

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 9 Jan 2005 9:39 pm

Well if I was told I had to tune a certain way because a legend tuned that way, and I'd spent 25 good hard steady years playing tuning otherwise, I'd throw my rig off a bridge.

I made a big enough mistake trying to use those flimsy blue herco picks that weren't big enough to fit the end of my thumb. I did it because "that's what Buddy Charleton told me to do." I lost 24 years of good thumb control on account of it. I regret not trying to make my own until last year.

He also bought a Sierra following Mr E's suit, and I never liked them, and have always blocked using his "early pinky under" method.

We never discussed "tuning flat". I just spent a lot of time sweating and learning technique, and instrumentals.

Somewhere about 25000 words ago I noted well after I posted my own band tested, set in stone method of tuning, did I find that others tuned that way too.

Mr Emmons' comments were a total surprise, albeit a pleasant one.

So are some of these other "heretics'" coming out of the "straight up closet".

It might surprise some to know just who all really tunes that way.

The possibility that it really sounds better to their ears is still way over a lot of peoples' heads.

Oh well.

No need to make an already difficult instrument harder for the beginning player than it is. That's my only point in a nutshell.

Besides, to quote a fellow player, "If someone can get away with tuning ten cents flat to every other instrument, I figure I'm home free."

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 9 Jan 2005 10:52 pm

"anybody else tune straight up 440?"
More or less, whatever it takes.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 9 Jan 2005 11:39 pm

I've heard people who can't play in tune on a six-string dobro in open G. I think it matters far less whether you tune JI or ET and far more whether you can hear if you're in tune or not. Considering the firepower on each side of the "debate," I'd say that that position would be pretty hard to argue against.

-Travis

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 10 Jan 2005 12:15 am

I have tuned all my strings to "straight up 440" ever since decent tuners were available. I tune the raises the same, but with two pedals down, knees by themselves. I can tune on stage in the middle of a loud show real fast and get it right every time. If my instrument shifts due to temperature, etc. I can fix it quick and simple with my little electronic assistant. And it works real good, better than it ever did when I was using harmonics and listening to beats.

It's not that I don't know how to do it without that little gadget, I played classical winds and strings for years in the days before we ever had such lovely little toys and was considered quite decent at it at the time.

If it sounds like I'm playing out of tune it's for sure not the guitar's fault!

Eric, you sounded perfectly in tune last night and you were loud enough for me to know, too. Better tell that girl singer that the band gets shirts, though, who dresses her anyway?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Jan 2005 4:27 am

This is one of those topics that we can count on to "Never go away" like " Brand X strings are best" ..or " Brand x Pickups are the best"...or " Brand X Steels sounds best"..

I have come to the opinion that tuning at or around 440 is and can be as personal as your Insrument. Once you have hunkered down into tuning pitch criterea you "Work" your Steel accordingly.

If you are in tune at the 0 fret with pedals AB down, ( A chord 440 ) then the rest is Turkey Talk..because a slight bar movement will bring home the bacon..

By the way, Rickys comment is very accurate..Loyd tunes somewhere between 441 and 442..and mostly by ear...

We don't have a piano in our band so I tune
as close to pitch as possible with PEDs AB down on the 0 fret and then tweak from there by ear..The tuner at 441 is a good starting point for reference.

I have also noticed a slight difference with new unstretched fresh strings as opposed to strings that have been on the guitar and stretched for a bit..

t

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 10 Jan 2005 6:55 am

Jody, That is an interesting point about tuning with your tuning fork. I have checked some forks with an electronic tuner and found that they are not all accurate(or so the tuner tells me). I have never noticed any out-of-tune problems when using an electronic tuner.
I always rub my hands on the strings a while before tuning, to get the strings to body temperature. If the guitar sits for a while after being tuned, I rub the strings again before playing.
As for tuning straight 440, that is the only way I can be in tune with keyboards and midi instruments.
Ricky is correct when he says some tweaking is necessary to be extremely accurate. The tweaking is also necessary because of cabinet drop, which varies from one instrument to another..........JD

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 10 Jan 2005 7:12 am

I have been tuning straight up for about 10 years now, I have never been accused of being out of tune. I used to tune to the sharp tuning that Jeff Newman used, but tuning my Universal 12 straight up just seemed to solve a lot of problems. You will get used to the 'sharp' thirds, just play along with some tracks for awhile & you won't notice that your 'In Tune'.

Ernie

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David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 10 Jan 2005 8:53 am

Terry, the only sensible thing is to tune the way that sounds best to your ears. Jeff Newman's tuning chart approximates just intonation (JI). But it was worked out on a particular guitar with a certain amount of cabinet drop. If your's has more or less drop, then, his chart may not work well for you. Cabinet drop can cause as much difference as the difference between JI and equal temperament (ET, or everything straight up 440). If ET sounds better for you and your guitar, then by all means use it. But if your guitar has cabinet drop you will notice that the Es you tuned open to straight up are no longer straight up when you press the AB pedals. You will have to decide whether you want things tuned to the straight up open Es, or the pedals-down flat Es, or split the difference.

The debate about JI or ET is centuries old. Generally, horns, fretless strings and vocalists approximate JI, and our ears naturally prefer JI. Fixed pitch instruments such as pianos and harps have developed ET as an acceptable compromise. Guitars are somewhere in between. While the strings are fixed-pitch, it is possible to play the scale and main simple chords in a single key JI by tweaking the tuning of the chords in that key. To change to another key for the next song, many guitarists retweak to approximate JI in that key. Other guitarists tune everything striaght up ET and don't tweak between songs (except to maintian ET).

The steel guitar is unique in that it has movable chords. So that if you tune JI to the major chords in one key, you will still be in good JI when you move the bar to another fret to play in another key. However, using lots of pedal and knee levers and more complicated chords and inversions can get you into situations where ET may work out better.

JI-tuned instruments have played in orchestras and small groups with ET-tuned instruments for hundreds of years and on thousands of recording tracks. It is something pros with good ears learn to do along the way. However, many pro guitarists and steel guitarists also tune ET. So it can be done either way. It is a matter of personal taste.

Tuning JI does not require a complicated chart. After tuning your Es straight up, tune all the strings that make up the E chord to that chord by ear. You can just listen for a good sound, but some people actually try to minimize the beats. Then tune the top two "chromatic strings" to a B chord, using the 5th string as the root. Tune the 7th string as the root to match the B and C pedals. Tune the 9th string to sound good as the 7th of the open E chord. You're done. This is the way steelers tuned for decades, before inexpensive hand-held chromatic tuners became widely available. The majority of pro steelers still use something similar to this (although some top pros tune straight up, possibly with some variation).

If you're in a noisy situation and can't hear, and have to use a meter, tune everything straight up, but tune the 6th and 3rd strings (the thirds of the E chord) 3 Hz or 12 cents flat. Also tune the 2nd string (the 3rd of the B chord) the same amount flat. Your done. If you need to tune the pedal and knee stops (rarely needed on the job), use the same principle as above, but always tune the stops to the open strings (unless you play a push-pull, which is the opposite).

If you want to fine tune your guitar to account for cabinet drop, tune your Es straight up. Press the A and B pedals and watch how much the intonation drops on the Es. Take half of the drop and always tune your open E chord that much sharp, and your AB pedal A chord that much flat. This will help, regardless of whether you are using JI or ET. It will make your tuning chart more complicated, but if you understand the principle, it is easy to remember how this affects the chart.

The bottom line is that it is a matter of taste. Try both ways, both by yourself and playing with a group. Go with whatever works best for you. After you've had some experience, do this test again from time to time, and see if you want to keep doing it the same way. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 10 January 2005 at 08:59 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 10 Jan 2005 9:02 am

What would really help this eternal debate would be for someone with computer recording capabilities to submit some samples that we could listen to. Play the same song tuned JI and ET, both with steel alone, and playing with ET tuned guitars and keyboards. Otherwise we are just chasing our tails.