anybody else tune straight up 440?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Jan 2005 7:31 am

Eric, I have no doubt that any good musician who tunes straight up all the time will eventually learn to hear that sound, and probably be able to get it tuning by ear. And I suppose you can get so used to it that you prefer it. We are all used to hearing keyboards sound like that. I don't mind it so much for keyboards (have played one myself for many years). When you play a horn (I play sax), you learn to play it like you sing, which will naturally be JI. Guitar is the most out of tune sounding instrument to me, especially electrics, with their longer sustained off-key dissonance. But we all get used to it in popular music. I think I gravitated to slide, dobro and pedal steel because you can make them sing on key (JI). To me that is one of the great strengths and attractions of the instrument. Yes, you can get used to hearing and playing ET. But are all of the symphony orchestras of the world for the last few centuries, which all play mostly JI with fretless strings and horns, wrong? Not for me. There is nothing wrong with treating a pedal steel like a piano and tuning ET, if that sounds okay to you and works better with the instruments you are playing with. There is also nothing wrong with tuning and playing JI as much as you can get away with. A pedal steel has fixed pitch strings and pedal/knee stops, but is played fretless with a bar, which acts as an infinite capo. It is thus neither purely fixed-pitch like a piano, nor totally flexible like a horn. So any tuning method will have some compromises, but can be made to work adequately. And beyond that it is a matter of personal taste.

If I ever get out there to Oregon again (was in Portland once), I'll drop by one of your gigs for those beers. I'm sure the intonation of the steel player will be acceptable, not to mention the paving on the surrounding roads.

I would still like to encourage this debate to get to the level of empirical science with some samples of JI and ET playing. For this we need true JI and true straight up everything, not Es-to-440-something and 3rds-tinkered-with.

Roger Edgington · Post by **Roger Edgington** » 11 Jan 2005 7:52 am

Intonation has always been a problem for me,probably due to some hearing loss and working with some bands that didn't tune too well. A few years ago I started using a tempered tuning chart. By myself or in small bands it sounded good to my ear. However,lately I have been tuning straight up 440 and tuning the Es with pedals down and flatening the 3rd and 6th a little. Where I really hear the most difference is when we play harmoney parts,lead,fiddle,steel.This seems to be working pretty well for me.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 11 Jan 2005 9:11 am

A fretted bass, or guitar, has a compensated (that's "slanted") bridge, to allow for the variance in string gauges, tensions, whatever. With a steel, you're dealing with a straight bridge, imaginary frets, and a straight bar. It only stands to reason, then, that SOME compensation must be done

Actually, the "compensated" bridge on fretted instruments compensates for the increased string tension from stretching the string as it is pressed to the fretboard. Without the need to allow for this the bridge of a fretted instrument would be straight, just like the PSG.

Fretless instruments such as cello, violin, etc. do not have "compensated" bridges but the bridge is set by hand. These instruments are theoretically tuned "straight up" -- the player compensates for string tension and harmonic intervals by ear, from experience with the particular instrument and through the subtle to liberal use of vibrato.

Valved brass instruments are another case entirely - if one tunes each individual valve they will be out of tune when used in combination with any other valve - the player compensates constantly, again by ear and from experience with the instrument.

The woodwinds each have their own intonation idiosyncracies. Again, the player must take care to play each note in tune with the ensemble.

There is a common notion in classical circles that tuning flat is superior to tuning "straight up" but most orchestra conductors would like nothing more than to shoot those who perpetrate this myth. The redeeming aspect of this practice is that those who can't play in tune are at least not playing sharp, a sin which cannot be ignored.

The subtleties of tuning reflect a mathematical conundrum that really has no simple solution - virtually all musical instruments except the keyboards and the harp must be played by the musician in such a fashion as to be in tune with themselves and the others of the ensemble. There are as many ways of achieving this end as there are musicians playing instruments - even piano technicians have their own individual preferences for tuning intervals.

Makes for good conversation, though....

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<img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
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Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, 1960 Les Paul (SG) Deluxe, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 11 Jan 2005 9:16 am

I am a bit confused about the keyboard/piano comments.

The info that I have is that different piano tuner people tune differently. Perhaps this is the reason that concert pianists often have their own tuner person tune the piano.

The tendency to "stretch tune" the piano makes high octave notes NOT exact multiples (Hz)of their low octave counterparts, but the all notes in between are per that curve (not tweaked off individually ala JI for a given key).

The mid range notes on the piano have several strings each, not all tuned to the same fundamental frequency. Reece, ..are you saying that we should or should not tune to these?

So we have stretched octaves, and multiple strings at different fundamental frequencies for given notes; sounds like someone WANTS beats for the piano.

One of the pulls on my tuning gives the notes D,F,A,C,E,G,B,D,F,A,C etc = CM13 coming and going. If I tweak tune the E, then the root of my Em7/Em9/Em11 chord is off as is the 7th of my FM7/FM9/FM9b11 etc. Tweak tune any of the notes and mess up the associated chords.

It seems that the term JI is applied to anything that is NOT ET, ..used that way, JI becomes a variable (non constant; hence saying JI has a random meaning. Does that mean that we are back to charts (of which there have been a variety) and the variables of different instrument structures?

The

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 11 Jan 2005 9:20 am

*

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 11 January 2005 at 02:56 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 11 Jan 2005 12:20 pm

"Actually, the "compensated" bridge on fretted instruments compensates for the increased string tension from stretching the string as it is pressed to the fretboard."

Dave, I can't quite agree with this, although I didn't exactly state myself correctly originally--could have been the Vicodin kicking in, not sure...
The pitch of a string of a given diameter can be raised in only two ways,---make the string shorter, or make it tighter. When a string is fretted, or played with a bar, it is being shortened. The fundamental frequency of that note changes, thus the position of the first harmonic(the octave) moves back toward the bridge. This is, as you point out, further complicated by the downward pressure on the string. So not only are we shortening the string, by fretting it, we'e also increasing the tension, by stretching the string toward the fretboard. Now if all the strings were the same diameter, we'd be in good shape. they're not, and the fundamental frenquency, and thus the location of those harmonics, is a function of mass per unit length of the string.
That slanted bridge on an acoustic guitar is a compromise, at best. On most of my acoustics, the bridge material has been removed on the third string, as it is the smallest wound string, and that doggone first harmonic is way up toward the peghead.
We've done better with electric guitars, with individual saddles for each string. Look at an old Gibson Tune-A-Matic bridge sometime. The saddles are slanted to one end, rather than coming to a point in the center. We've probably all had to reverse one or two of those saddles to shorten, or lengthen, a string enough to get it in tune.
And Fender wisely switched bridge saddles when Leo and them came up with the Stratocaster, making each string adjustable, instead of two strings per saddle, as the Telecaster was built.
AND, string gauges in those days were a LOT bigger than the lights we use today. So, again, using string mass as a function of that fundamental, we can say, for all intents and purposes, that we've changed the scale length over the years.
As far as the unfretted instruments are concerned, it is up to the individual playing the instrument to make pitch corrections on the fly, keeping in mind that, as I said before, THOSE folks don't have to play chords! MAN, ain't fiddle players got it made???
So I doubt if we'll ever see total agreement on this tuning thing. Tension, string length, and string mass are ALL parts of the formula for determining the fundamental of a string, and thus the location of the harmonics. Change any of the three, and the fundamental frequency, and the location of those harmonics, changes.
Sorry for the long post---anybody wanna go fishing?

edited for lousy spelling---IT'S THAT VICODIN AGAIN!!![This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 11 January 2005 at 12:26 PM.][This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 11 January 2005 at 12:30 PM.]

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 11 Jan 2005 3:14 pm

Mr. Emmons (and others) tune straight up,,,and then start tweaking to what sounds good. I wonder if that tweaking takes them BACK to JI?

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 11 Jan 2005 4:49 pm

As has been stated many times on this forum, there is only one just intonation, anything else is tempered. Tuning a steel to JI does not include fudging the e's this way are that, or flatting the 3rds, or raising 6 to allow for cabinet drop, or anything else. Do a search, listen to some JI stuff, tell us if you like it.
To each his own, but I start at 440, fudge it for cabinet drop, then play crappily, but in tune. JP

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 11 Jan 2005 5:25 pm

there is only one just intonation, anything else is tempered.

Not so. There are many different systems of just intonation.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 11 Jan 2005 7:53 pm

Mr Jenkins, Mr Emmons latest clear comments state that he ONLY "Tweaks" the middle G# .020 string to make up for differences in room temperature, a couple cents, not Hz, but I guess that's all it takes to open the door..

Mr Doggett. I am to assume that if the chord an orchestra is playing is a "C Chord", then violinists, harpists, glockenspieliers, and others are not allowed to play their open E strings, or notes without muting them immediately..

I have stated before that fiddlers that follow vocals flat are a total PITA. I can imagine them trying to follow the pennywhistle around in an orchestra. It's not an "election". People wonder why Buddy Rich went nutso once in a while..

This reminds me of some of this "new math". 1 and 1 is whatever you want it to be by virtue of who is adding it, and that there is still a question of the validity of E=mc2.

There is either a twelve note musical system, or there is not. If there is a 13 note system, or a 43 note system, then there is a 3 jillion note system. All of a sudden nobody's out of tune. Yeah well I'm not buying it. Electronic keyboards, well intoned guitars, and other instruments that we all have to play with go with 12 semitones. Neatly arranged.

Nobody has seemed to catch that "vibrato" is a multinote affair, or that MANY of us play half fret notes ALL THE TIME. I play a definite half fret chord hit very hard and slid up to the fret many times a night, or go down a half fret and slide into a chord. I don't know many players that don't.

This thread was titled "anybody else tune straight up 440?"

Lets let this partial record stand to some poor kid that's searching for "players that 'tune straight up' to their tuners." because he's given up on the 43 note system, or the Mr Thusandsuch Tuning Chart and he didn't have the money to buy the latest Rubegoldbergation Changer on a 6000$ guitar..

The count so far: 15 that tune straight up 440 (or close enough).

About 7 that don't but answered the post anyhow. Two or three of them pretty famous. I am among their fans, playing wise, to be sure.

Considering the power of dis- or detracting arguments, and the caliber of those making them, I'd say that there is indeed some hope for those of us that like to hear chords that don't have flat notes in them. Some of us for decades.

Also for those just starting out that need to be able to "believe" that they are capable of being TOTALLY IN TUNE before they can have the confidence to proceed full force with the important parts of playing. Like PLAYING.

It's a large closet.

I think a few more of us are going to come out before it's over...

(... muffled thumps and struggling sounds....)

D.D. you tear me up..

Steve, you're exactly right. Maybe it is the Vikes...

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 11 Jan 2005 8:48 pm

"There is either a twelve note musical system, or there is not."

Eric, there is not. You are describing a microtonal note sysytem when you speak of starting a chord a haf-free below, or above, the intended fret. You call 'em quarter-tones. Every time you get chicken skin when B.B.King bends a note, it's not the note he started from, or the note he ends up, that causes the reaction. It's the microtonal intervals, creating tension, that elicit a reaction. Different chords evoke different emotions(seems like there was a thread about this), and dissonances and tensions resolving themselves, that create music. In India, a twelve-note scale would be thought quite limiting, as would be the case in several Oriental musics.

"New math is the same as old math, they just don't call it that anymore."
----Archimedes
[This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 11 January 2005 at 08:49 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 11 Jan 2005 8:58 pm

Something I just thought of, and then I'm through here. (I know when my work is done, unlike some superheroes!)
Mr. Dogget mentions the G# as the third of an E chord. Mr. Lundgren mentions the E as the third of a C chord. But what if we use that same e note as the FIFTH of an A chord?
What if the G# is the FIFTH of a C# chord? And what if they're the roots of an E, A, C, or C# chord? And why refer everything to 440 Hz, an "A" note, anyway? Especially when we're talking about what's essentially an E (or C, if you play jazz

) tuned instrument?
Bye now-->

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Jan 2005 9:19 pm

I've tried equal temperament several times, but never on the E9th. Given the cabinet drop that happens on every E9th instrument I've had, I don't understand how it could work.

Eric: when you tune your C# straight up, what is the value of your E string? It seems to me that if E deflects by 5 cents when you press your first two pedals, you aren't in ET anymore.

A few guitars have fancy mechanisms that "solve" the cabinet drop "problem", but almost every E9th guitar I've ever touched has an audible amount of drop. I just don't understand how equal temperament can work if, as soon as you press the pedals, the unpedaled strings aren't tuned to the same mark as the pedaled ones. It's not really ET then, is it?

If the C# to E interval is less than 300 cents, it sounds way out of tune to me. If you tune everything to ET, cabinet drop will narrow that interval to 295 cents or less. My ear just doesn't like those flat minor thirds.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 11 Jan 2005 9:27 pm

Sreve. You're going to have to do something to make me quit agreeing with you..

However the twelve "basic" notes, for me all fall within the exactitude of the ET scale as represented by the Conn, Korg, Seiko, tuners, and tuning forks. I try my best to play the chords I play that way. That way I find far less 15+ cent disagreement with the electronic keyboards and well tuned and intoned guitars I play with.

No reason at all that a steel player, BB or anybody can't "jump out there" with quarter or eighth tones. We do it all the time. JH anybody?

Indian and Oriental "scales" are often less "advanced" than we squareheads think they are. Often from what I've read, they were "arbitrary". Though indeed, like "ET" they were easy enough for constant listeners to expect to hear in their "correct form".

Indian ragas were not nor could they be played as chords. I'd be interested in finding out how the drone strings were tuned.

Believe it or not I once thought of learning Sitar, but I didn't feel like being chained to a tree for ten years. I know... It's not too late....

It's nice to know that we're on the same page on something..

EJL

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 11 Jan 2005 9:41 pm

b0b.

Glad you showed up. Even if you don't tune ET.

I don't know. I imagine it sags. More now than before.

My Marrs IS on the bench, after the traditional nine month incubation and I'll soon have much less "droop" to deal with.

It's getting so where I have to douch my changer with penetrating oil before a gig., and sit and warm it up before it changes true. It's worn out beyond my belief. It's had a hard life.

If I tried some more of those dicked with tunings I'd just have more nightmares.

Here's another.

I have a Korg Tuner New G12. Both arrows light up when you're "dead on".

I play an E into it. Both arrows light up.

I play a B into it at the same time. Both arrows light up.

I play a an E, G# and B into it. In order to get them both to light, I have to lower the G# ten cts, and raise the B 5cts. then the needle is in the middle.

The chord that ensues?

I think it sounds flat, and it is not totally "beatless". The tuner "thinks" it's in tune.

I'd sure love to get an oscillator tune that would show the combined waveforms of played chords with motion. That would be very interesting.

I also wish I had time to fill your hard drives with megabytes of my half baked theories. You'd probably get a kick out if it too.

But alas.

In the meantime.

I'll continue to tune straight up, and will never run out of reasons for doing so.

I could even make up some new ones.

You're nodding your head, aren't you...

EJL

Allan Thompson · Post by **Allan Thompson** » 12 Jan 2005 8:44 am

As near to straight up as cabinet drop will allow.

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 12 Jan 2005 10:15 am

I tune close to stright up,like between JT and ET. I still think it,s a matter of how one hears. Now the players that have lost some hearing do they tend to JT or ET? Some players say that they used to tune JT and now tune ET, is it because that they have lost more of there hearing? Maybe hearing loss has no effect on how we tune,JT ET or hafe way I don't know. What do you think? Joe

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Jan 2005 12:11 pm

Eric, do you tune your pedaled A's and C#'s with both pedals down, or just one? Do you compare them to other notes (specifically the E), or do you always tune them to the center of the meter?

In other words, when you press pedals A+B or A+F, do you really have an ET major chord? When you press A alone or B+C, do you really have an ET minor chord? Inquiring minds want to know.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 12 Jan 2005 12:34 pm

Stephen, you said

Now if all the strings were the same diameter, we'd be in good shape. They're not, and the fundamental frenquency, and thus the location of those harmonics, is a function of mass per unit length of the string

I can't tell if we are agreeing or not, but the first harmonic (one octave above the fundamental) is ALWAYS exactly twice the frequency and generated by the vibration of exactly one-half of of the fundamental string, regardless of mass. The second harmonic (one fifth above the fundamental) is three times the frequency and one-third of the string length. The third harmonic vibrates at four times the frequency using one-fourth the length, and so on ad infinitum.

This is why the steel guitar with no added tension from pressing the strings to frets is in tune with its bridge AND nut equidistant for both low and high strings and the bar held EXACTLY parallel with both. On a PSG, adjustments for tuning variances due to different string mass is made in the pedal and lever tuning systems.

The set-back third string point on some guitar bridges is, as you mention, due to the use of wound strings in that position, which change pitch with tension at a different rate than unwound ones. Proper setup of an adjustable bridge involves matching the fretted notes to the open-string first, second and third harmonics by moving the bridge forward to shorten the string from the mathematically correct length to the point where the string is in tune with itself across the fretboard, compensated for the change in tension. This point will change with a different string size, tension and hieght from the fretboard.

YO, that's enough, there are lots of excellent books available on the subject and I gotta go practice.

Best -- dg[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 12 January 2005 at 12:36 PM.]

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 12 Jan 2005 12:36 pm

After much experimentation and thought, I tune ET. Cabinet drop doesn't seem to be a concern. I play a real old p/p.
I'd also note that very few other instrumentalists I've spoken to are able to converse about the topic... they don't get it. It's a ET world out there. If you can't beatless 'em, join 'em.
-John

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www.ottawajazz.com [This message was edited by John Steele on 12 January 2005 at 02:00 PM.]

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 12 Jan 2005 3:02 pm

Against my better judgement,I have three things to add to this discussion.

1. It really doesn’t matter how you tune, it matters only if you sound in tune to yourself and the rest of your band. I don’t think anyone in the audience can tell the difference between JI and ET. They would certainly be aware of poor intonation.

2. Last year at the Texas Steel Guitar Jamboree there was standing room only when Buddy Emmons performed his sets. I didn’t hear anyone dissing Buddy for being out of tune. As a matter of fact, Doug Jernigan and I were sitting together at his booth and when Buddy finished Doug looked at me and replied, “Buddy can still do it can’t he”? I had to give Doug a big AMEN on that. After Buddy’s Saturday night set my friend asks Buddy Emmons if he was actually tuned straight up. Buddy replied, “Every note”, or something to that effect. At that same Jamboree, I'm sure more that a few of the performing players tuned JI. They all sounded in tune to me. Like I said before, if you sound "in tune", you are "in tune".

3. When these type tuning discussions appear on the forum, someone always states that piano’s aren’t tuned ET. One day I took my Korg tuner down to the most exclusive music store in Tallahassee. I asked the manager if I could check out some of the pianos for my own education. He gave me the green light. Every Piano I checked was tuned ET. It’s true that a piano tuner stretches the tuning a little sharp going up, and a little flat going down, but everything in the same octave is ET for all practical purposes. I guess what I’m trying to say that if you make an “E” chord on the piano, the G#’s will not be as flat as the Newman chart. If you play with an electronic key board, I can assure you that it will be tuned ET.

On the lighter side, during Urban Cowboy days, I played with a top flight band at the Abilene Country Saloon in San Diego. It was a super gig because at that time it was part of the Convention Center for San Diego. It was like being on the road without all the travel hassles. Every week you got a new bunch of drunks. The saloon had happy hour from 7:00 PM until 9:00 P.M. The band couldn’t make a sound until the first tune at 9:00 PM. At about 8:30 one evening I was tuning my steel with a Korg AT-12 tuner. One of the customers came up to the band stand and said, “I don’t think Buddy Emmons tunes that way”! I smiled and told him to stick around and have a few more drinks and I would show him some more stuff that “Buddy doesn’t do”.
Leon

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 12 Jan 2005 3:47 pm

Dave, I THINK we're agreeing, here.
You ARE saying that we "tune" an adjustable bridge so that the node of the first harmonic is at the same point as the octave, correct? You say that this node varies due to string size, tension, and height from the fingerboard. Do we agree that that height from the fingerboard is merely another way to increase tension:, that is, the string must get tighter to reach the fret(and NOT the fingerboard)? So, then it's the length of the (vibrating) string that we're adjusting?
And giving further thought to this already over-analyzed mess, ever seen the old style nut on a Stelling banjo? The second(or third, can't really remember) string is notched way back, and both of those are unwound strings---just as the third string on a regular set(.010-.046) of electric strings.
So the bridge is moved back to compensate for tension, and string length, right? Then we're in agreement!
You want a Vicodin?
"Peace, Out!"

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 12 Jan 2005 4:06 pm

OK I have read every word written and I appreciate your time....but remember this??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK Explain this and I'm not complaining.
I tuned all three necks to an A 440 tuning fork in my room in St.Louis. When I got up on the bandstand I was 1/2 tone flat and spent 5 minutes trying to get all three necks
1/2 higher in pitch. Do you know how embrassed I felt? How come? Why was the band 1/2 tone higher than each string on my triple neck?

What's this all about Alfie? You mean to tell me my fork was no good,,come clean tell me. I can take it.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Jan 2005 6:12 pm

Are you sure it was an A fork, Jody? Not an Ab or Eb? Are you sure that nobody messed with your guitar after you tuned it?

I saw the set in question, and I share your frustration.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 12 Jan 2005 7:41 pm

b0b.

You've got me in a weak period where my ProIII has got enough holes in the intonation to throw a cat through. It's something that's been building for the last half year, and My Marrs is on the bench as I type, THANK GOD. ( And Jeff).

Until things in my changer and brass swivels started going to hell I had a lot less trouble going out and "setting" all my changes before the first set.

Jeff's going to send me enough swivels, and a couple bearing clamps etc that are egg shaped on my old PIII, that taking it apart, machining the tops of the fingers uniformly and adding a long awaited vert or two, it'll be the same old warhorse, with a straight front. ( I'm putting a Marrtian front angle iron axle point on it and straighten the front apron bow.)

Until recently, I never had any cabinet drop more than 2 0r 3 cents. Now I won't tell you how much I find.

Yes I only tune one pedal at a time, and I know there is definitely a sag at this point.

I'll let you in on a little secret.

It's not in how you tune if you're "close".

It's in how much confidence in your intonation you have, and how much conviction you play it with. It's actually a player's "power of suggestion". You can believe it or not. I notice it in other's performances more than mine, but I know the feeling when I've got it, and when I'm 'not sure'. I can tell when a guy is playing with hesitancy.

It's like when you knock your tenth string out with your left hand, and hear your octaves off. You tune it back "by ear", but never really "nail" that octave til you get it on the meter. At least I'm thataway.

If I had all these dickedwith changes, It would put a crack in my confidence.

If somebody put me behind a sho~bud that I believed was tuned "straight up", whether it was or not, they'd find that I would play with enough conviction to believe that I was "in tune", and that would be that.

If I believed that it had all these "dickwiths", and I had to start taking "special little nuances" into account, I'd be like a cat with a wad of pitch stuck on his tail.

That's what has allowed me to be able to play things with the amount of conviction that I have.

That's why I believe that "new players" need to be able to start out with TOTAL confidence that all they have to do is learn how to PLAY, and not how to get all these little columns on a chart to line up, and be careful of this little thing ands that little thing. And to get their left hand to do what their ears want it to immediately.

When people like Mr Grafe come out to hear me with the band, I try to play as many big fat wide voiced chords, open, and without vibrato, and I like getting their feedback.

After all these 50000 or more words, I'm admitting that it doesn't really matter how I tune, but I must be confident that if somebody's "out" that it's not me. The beauty of MODERN electronic keyboards that are very close to dead on with my electronical tuner, is that I can prove that I can play in tune with them, AND guitars. ANd still sound that way to myself, and my peers.

I really do believe that I don't need nor like to hear thirds that are 'beatless'.

I got that way playing guitar some twenty years into it. Fifths had better be almost beatless, and octaves better be. That's why 6 string "power chords" are root/fifths.

Sixths are like ninths. Junk chords. Sevenths are a sign of laziness, and ignorance of the lydian mode.

( ducks....)

EJL

PS.

MAN I'm going to like seeing that brand new Professional with white JW pickups, white metal fretboards, and a nice semicircular set of hearts diamonds clubs and spades on the front under the lacquer. It'll be nice to have my first vertical kls, too.

Maybe it'll even sound good...

EJL