Tuning - will the band hate me?

[Lane Gray]

At 440 Hertz, 1 Hertz deviation is around 4 cents (the logarithmic nature means that it varies wherever you are).
As noted elsewhere, 100 cents=1fret.
G# is at 415.3, just UNDER 25 Hertz lower, and A# is 466.16,just OVER 26 Hertz higher. (See www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html for the source).
As to how crucial, it's NOT. As a beginner, unless you're Ian with his trombone history, I doubt that the difference between ET, Newman, Hudson or Emmons charts (or my modified ET) will make much difference. This is all just nibbling (or quibbling) at the edges.

[b0b]

Lane, they are referring to the Hz scale on the tuner, not actual Hz. It's used to change the reference frequency for orchestras that don't use the A=440 Hz standard. Steel players who don't have a cents scale use it to eyeball JI, hence the "1 Hz = 4 cents" axiom.

People think they are tuning E to 442 Hz, but they're really tuning E to 500 cents below 442 Hz (about 331.1 Hz).

[chris ivey]

My tuner doesn't display cents how critical is all of this? Does that depend on one's ear for pitch and personal taste perhaps?

tuning and playing in tune 'only' depends on one's ear. not a fancy tuner or tuning formula.

[Donny Hinson]

The question for this thread: What tuning method sounds best IN A BAND MIX?

The answer is: Whatever tuning method that you can use and sound good with. Different famous players use different methods, yet they all sound in tune, with all the other instruments. Why? Well the simple answer is that playing in tune isn't a method, a chart, a bunch of numbers, or some readings on a meter. Playing in tune is a skill, just like learning to play. You must learn to listen, and learn to find (and play in) the tonal center of all the other instruments.

The bottom line is that if it sounds in tune, it is in tune. Even when the tuner meter says otherwise, even when the guitar player uses a different tuner and plays in different keys, even when the piano player doesn't use anything. We're the instrument of variable pitch, and so we're tasked with making whatever adjustments we have to to sound good, to sound in-tune.

What sounds better overall?

Sorry, we honestly can't tell you. That's because it will differ with each band, and with each steel player. Nothing is set in stone, nothing will work for everyone, and in all cases. Developing your ear is the most important thing. Without a good ear, there is no solution to the problem of "sounding out of tune", because once the bar hits the strings...all bets are off. From that point on, it's simply a matter of using your ears, and doing whatever's necessary to play in tune.

[Steve Lipsey]

Donny, Chris, etc.-
I appreciate what you are saying, but, in fact, there are things you can do that sound different than other things....and I just want to understand them, to be able to choose...my ears need to be supported by that gray stuff in between them...

I never heard the beats on my 6-string (except in the early years, when I used them to tune) until I started messing with steel, and as mentioned above by others, now they annoy me on 6-string....and somehow they are much more "present" on steel, and really hurt that pretty "angels singing" sound that we all seek....

I think the "thirds 4 cents down" method really walks a good line between sounding perfect, and sounding consonant with the band...at least for now, for me.

[Donny Hinson]

Donny, Chris, etc.-
I appreciate what you are saying, but, in fact, there are things you can do that sound different than other things....and I just want to understand them, to be able to choose...my ears need to be supported by that gray stuff in between them...


I think the "thirds 4 cents down" method really walks a good line between sounding perfect, and sounding consonant with the band...at least for now, for me.

Nothing wrong with that, Steve. The point I was wanting to make is that what works for you, and me, and the guy up in the tree, may be different. (A lotta players don't recognize that fact.) That's why we have so many charts, so many methods, and so many non-pro players who are forever tuning, or trying to tune. It's a very simple game, because in the end, despite what your brain, the tuner, or the charts may tell you - if it doesn't sound good, you're out.

The fact that you can hear those beats is a very good sign.

[Steve Lipsey]

Guys-
Real thanks to all of you for contributing here...funny, I've read pretty much all of the previous threads on tuning over the years (and there are more than a few), and it always seemed like the old "What does a person sound like to a dog? "Blah, blah blah"...." thing...but I guess I'm ready to hear it now, it all makes complete sense.

We'll see if the band agrees, at the next gig....

-S

[b0b]

All of the keys on my marimba are tuned to ET at A=442 Hz. That's right - they are all measurably 8 cents sharp. And yet, when I play with other musicians tuned to A=440 Hz, they never notice and neither do I.

Even a fine musician's ear will tolerate a lot from an instrument with a different timbre.

[Tony Glassman]

After establishing a reference note (A 440), I tune so it sounds right to me. My solution is (whenever possible), to set-up as physically far away from the guitar player's amp that I can......preferably with the bass amp between us. When that can't happen, I just "soldier through" the gig anyway.

I'm pretty sure that the bulk of the audience (unless there are other steelers present) can neither hear nor care less these tuning nuances.

[Lane Gray]

Tony, that's exactly it.
All these tuning discussions matter mainly in the basement or studio.
If you play with others, this all goes out the window, since the fiddler will be a little off most of the time (hopefully close the whole time), the guitar player will be a titch out because uneven finger pressure will change things. Hopefully everyone will be close. Use your ears.



¹how do you get three fiddles perfectly in tune? Shoot two players

[Pete Burak]

Steve, Get some live/studio/rehearsal recordings of your bands playing their songs without Steel...
If they don't have any ask them to make some at their next rehearsal.
Play along with them at home and get in tune with those recordings.
Record your settings... they may be different from band to band.
Then record yourself playing with these bands and contunually hone your tuning.
The recordings don't lie... Nothing else matters.
It probably won't happen overnight.

[Tom Wolverton]

When I started playing PSG in a band, I struggled with intonation using various sweetened tunings. The guitars were tuning straight up. I talked to an experienced pro steel player who told me to just tune straight up as well. Bingo. Made a ton of improvement.

[Len Amaral]

OK, this not my idea but a fellow on youtube mentioned it so I am forwarding it here.

All tuners are not the same so unless everyone uses the same tuner in the band or everyone goes to a music store and trys tuners that are in sync with each other or
everyone can still be out of tune.

Also, tell the six string players to tune the 3rd string G (flat) or fret that string at the
second fret A and tune to the A. When he plays an E chord he will be pretty much on trarget. Also, after you have the A note in tune, hit the G string open and see how flat it is.

Also, tune the way you play on the wound strings. We just about touch the strings when we tune and then play agressive. If you tune the wound strings, even at the 12 freat harmonic, tune to your agressive playing and the watch the tuner when you just about touch the string.

Not trying to start an argument here just suggesting a different approach to this never ending tuning issue.

[Steve Lipsey]

Two new questions-
If I do the "4 cents down thirds", then what about:

-B+C Minor 2nd chord - F# A C# - the low C# will hurt, but I assume that you just don't lower this C# (C pedal), only flat the others (A pedal)

-D lever Minor 3rd chord - G# B D# - BOTH G# and D# are flatted...but I guess that a minor chord isn't as sensitive to this, you just let it go?

-and-

What about playing scale runs? Depending on what the backing chord is, playing those flatted C#, D# and G# notes will sound wonky?

Or - are these situations exactly what vibrato was invented for?

[Steve Lipsey]

and to answer the other comments:
-just ignore the guitar and stand far away from it - nope, too many musicians in Portland...and I do care how we sound together.

-I really want those pretty chords to sound pretty - and now that I really notice the beats I want to minimize them. I firmly believe that people notice this, even subliminally, if they can't articulate it - when something sounds better, they like the band more.

-I can't tell the guitar player to tune flat G string - we play in all keys! He doesn't have other thirds to tune..(and he wouldn't do it, anyway)

-I have recently become more conscious of the effect of bar pressure on pitch and do listen for it.

-Finally, I AM in tune with the band (at least when I was only flatting the G#s) - we just recorded an EP, and it sounds fine. The bass player is VERY picky and would have made me redo the track if it wasn't...

[Tom Gorr]

Ever note that the steel guitar kind of does harmonized two note pads and swells through most of the song...and then the steel break comes....and it has this voice and vibe that's just slightly different pitchwise than what was just heard by the lead guitar picker or keyboard....

Its likely some of this 'vibe' is the steel guitar being tuned just slightly differently than the rest of the instruments in the band. Maybe more like JT when everybody else is ET...

Part of the live sound is a little bit of out of tuneness coming from all the instruments...a little bit of out of timeness...and if the band has the prerequisite 'magic' it all works to create a vivid experience for the audience. If the magic is not there, it can sound awful.

[Pete Burak]

The question for this thread: What tuning method sounds best IN A BAND MIX?

-Finally, I AM in tune with the band (at least when I was only flatting the G#s) - we just recorded an EP, and it sounds fine. The bass player is VERY picky and would have made me redo the track if it wasn't...

Steve, I haven't read every post here from beginning to end, but it sounds like you've got it worked out.
Maybe post a few clips?
Pete B.

[Brian Brgant]

So if my cabinet drop is 4 cents, and I want to tune my G#(3rds)four cents flat, does that become 8 cents for the G#(3rds)? Or do I keep them at four cents flat? 4 Cents alone just doesn't seem to cut it for me. Even at 8 cents I want to lower them more. I realize it is all a compromise. And I am not really playing yet so it will evolve as I go. Now that I think about it, and what has been postedin this thread, if the 3rds become 5ths with the pedals down, 8 cents would just be more out of tune?(Flatting the 5ths) Right?

As a new guy that has a steel at home, tuning this thing just gets tougher as your ears develop. I mean the thirds sound way better at 15 cents flat till you use your pedals, then its WTF! I have never had great ears to begin with, but boy are they getting an education now! It is really hard to decide which way to go!! I guess it all takes time.

Sorry to be thinking out loud here, but it helps me along the way.

[Dave Mudgett]

So if my cabinet drop is 4 cents, and I want to tune my G#(3rds)four cents flat, does that become 8 cents for the G#(3rds)? Or do I keep them at four cents flat? 4 Cents alone just doesn't seem to cut it for me. Even at 8 cents I want to lower them more.

There's no 'algorithm' to decide how to adjust for cabinet drop. If you train your ears, you'll be able to hear when you've made reasonable compromises.

I mean the thirds sound way better at 15 cents flat till you use your pedals, then its WTF!

Adjust the stops on your pedals and levers until they sounds good also. If you start working with harmonic tuning (just intonation), you'll be shocked how flat you need to make the F-lever if you do everything else correctly - and then one aims high of the fret with the ubiquitous A+F combination.

And I am not really playing yet so it will evolve as I go.

None of this matters until you really start playing. You can tune all you want, but once you put the bar on the strings, all bets are off.

If all this seems too much, just tune to the tuner until you start getting the lay of the land. First things first - get the damned thing reasonably in tune, start figuring out how to work the bar, work the picks, figure out the grips and how to pick chords/arpeggios cleanly, learn to do some blocking, start getting comfortable with the pedals and perhaps the E=>F and E=>Eb levers, learn the basic harmonized scales up and down the neck, and finally learn some tunes. When you've done this and you're sufficiently in control of the bar that you start really noticing pitch issues arising from tuning (and not your technique), you should then be prepared to tackle it. Personally, I had quite a bit of seat time in before any tuning improvements would have made any difference.

[Steve Lipsey]

but, to answer your question, you should tune your guitar with the most common pedals and levers engaged - e.g. tune your string 5 C# and your string 6 A with the A AND B pedals BOTH down, because that is most often how you will use them.

That way any cabinet drop is automatically included, so just tune for what you want the end note to be...e.g., 4 cents down for the C#. The string 6 open G# is tuned with nothing down, because that is how you will use it most often.

Tune your C pedal with both B and C down. Tune your F lever with F and A pedal...etc.

Of course, if the music you play often calls for certain specific pedal/lever combos, you can tune with those engaged...

[Steve Lipsey]

And we are almost through mixing the EP, i'll post some soon....

[Brian Brgant]

Thanks guys, not wanting to hijack your thread Steve......Dave, I am practicing all the stuff you mentioned. I have a hard time with melodies as a bass player who can"t sing a lick, I never practiced any melodies which is what I am struggling with most,( and of course the accuracy of such)! I LOVE diads. they sound great and are intriguing. I guess it is two part harmony right?

The A-F reference is to the A Pedal, F lever combo right?

Steve, I usually tune my E's Straight with the pedals down, and work from there. Tuning most things straight with the pedals down(about 4cents sharp on my PSG) And the C# and G# four cents flat. I hope I am on the right track? OK, back to tuning with the Band(sorry for that!

That is surely a ways off for me!! [/b]

[Dave Mudgett]

The A-F reference is to the A Pedal, F lever combo right?

Yes, it's a heavily-used pedal/lever combination, which at first confounds a lot of people to get in-tune using harmonic tuning. If one does the harmonic-ratio math, it turns out that the theoretical pitch of the F-lever in its most common usage is almost 30 cents flat of equal temperament. This article by b0b explains it - http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/just_e9.html

Again, I think you have plenty enough to work on to just get the basic mechanics of pedal steel down without worrying about the fine points of how you "should" tune your guitar. If you find tuning your 3rds 4 cents flat of the straight-up tuner helps, go for it. Get the open strings and pedals in tune any way you can and work on developing your playing mechanics and your ear. I think it's entirely reasonable to tune to the tuner - and then if you can make small adjustments by ear, that's great.

[Donny Hinson]

If one does the harmonic-ratio math, it turns out that the theoretical pitch of the F-lever in its most common usage is almost 30 cents flat of equal temperament

That's probably the reason I can't stand ET.

...I think it's entirely reasonable to tune to the tuner - and then if you can make small adjustments by ear, that's great.

I think many steelers are developing a constant and total reliance on a tuner, which just promotes a "lazy ear". I could name several very famous modern-day players who don't sound in-tune. But back in the '60s, before electronic tuners (and with those "much inferior" guitars) you simply didn't hear all those beats.

Tuners can be useful, if you don't let them become a crutch. But I think that's where we're headed.

[Pete Burak]

Donny, What is one of the modern songs that you clearly hear the beats?
I'd like to check it out.
Just curious.
Pete