Tuning - will the band hate me?

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 14 Apr 2014 8:21 pm

The question for this thread: What tuning method sounds best IN A BAND MIX?
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OK, I was doing ET + flat G# just a bit, but just started to add in some JI...flat the thirds, the G#, D# and F, a bunch - till the beats are just about gone....(leaving the C# where it is because I use A+F a lot, so it is a root there, along with a A+B pedals-down third)

Those of you who play with a band - does that create havoc with the 6-string player's tuning? What sounds better overall?

I checked a 6-string...and for a strummed chord, the notes are all over the place - fretted ones sharp, thirds never flatted, etc. - but the 6 notes at once sort of cover up the beats (you can hear them if you listen).

So does my flatted-third thing just fold into that OK, or will it make it worse?

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 14 Apr 2014 9:18 pm

I tune E9 pretty close to harmonically, i.e., close to JI. It forced me to really focus on listening for pitch very carefully, and took a few years before I didn't feel naked tuning without an electronic tuner (which I only use now to get my E=442 roots on E9). The result is that now lot of people sound out of tune to me, which drives me crazy sometimes. But I really try to aim for the ensemble pitch center, and I think I sound significantly more in-tune in an ensemble setting now.

The other thing is that it makes me crazy playing guitar, which I still do a lot, and will always do. It really is imperfect, which I always knew and could hear if I listened carefully, but was less sensitive to. Not so much playing jazz or blues, where I tend to use a lot of altered chords, but definitely when playing heavily triadic chords in country, Americana, rock and roll, and so on.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 14 Apr 2014 10:22 pm

Bandmates don't notice how I tune my guitar. They just notice if I play out of tune. Lots of steel players use JI or something close to it. Some of them play in tune, some of them don't.

The musical ear is very forgiving in the area of major thirds between 386 cents and 400 cents. Few people hear anything in that zone as being "out of tune". You bar placement, however, can make you sound out of tune regardless of how well you tune your guitar. If you bar your C note at the 8th fret way flat of the band, it won't matter if the E note above it is JI or ET - you'll still sound flat. But if you bar that C note real close to the band's C note, the E will sound in tune, and it won't matter whether it's JI or ET.

Tuning the 3rds somewhere between JI and ET makes bar placement a little bit less critical, and it makes the guitar easier to keep in tune, too.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 15 Apr 2014 6:20 am

I tune my guitar in JT because that makes the sound that made me want to play. I'm new to the steel but I'm an experienced trombone player with an ear for these things. I haven't played steel with other musicians yet, but when I play with backing tracks I find that if I get the melody note where the listener expects it, then the rest of me sounds fine and the ET instruments on the track sound out. Pretty much what Dave and b0b are saying, as I understand them.

Orchestral trombones played well tune their chords in natural intervals and no-one complains that they're not ET enough - they just admire the sonority.

Dale Rivard · Post by **Dale Rivard** » 15 Apr 2014 6:21 am

I totally agree with what Dave and Bob have said. Steve, the issue I would have with your method would be between the 3rd, 6th strings(G#'s) and the 5th, 10th strings A pedal down.(C#'s) If you're tuning your 3rd and 6th(G#'s) strings by ear, somewhat close to JI and then tuning your 5th and 10th strings with the A pedal down(C#'s) somewhat close to ET, to my ear, those notes will not blend at all. Keep in mind, with the A pedal down the 3rd and 6th strings become the 5th of the chord and should be pretty much beatless whether it's JI or ET. I use a meantone tuning and place most of my 3rd's somewhere between JI and ET. I'm not saying this is the only method to tune but I do believe the 3rd's must be consistent within the tuning. As your ears develop you will realize tuning is a compromise no matter what method you use. I believe over time your ears will tell you where to tune all open strings and pedal and knee lever combinations so that it sounds best for how you use them. As others have said, most important is playing to the band's center of pitch.

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 15 Apr 2014 7:05 am

Steve for more info COME TO THE PORTLAND STEEL JAM MAY 4TH!!!!!

Larry Behm

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 15 Apr 2014 7:44 am

Bandmates don't notice how I tune my guitar. They just notice if I play out of tune

in a nutshell...

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 15 Apr 2014 8:47 am

All good advice, thanks, guys - been playing steel in bands for a few years now, but I'm finally at the point where I really can start making decisions for myself on how to sound...

Ian-
I think you meant JI, not "JT" - the two methods are JI and ET?...and my point is that I don't want to make the band sound out of tune - that just isn't helpful. I don't want to be "right", I want the WHOLE band to sound good. Or at least as good as possible...

I think b0b's method of being in between - which is sort of where I settled in my experiments - is the way to accomplish that. I'll have to see exactly how close to JI or ET I want to end up...

I still have to live with that pesky C# - either my A+B or my A+F is just going to be wrong. I guess I could flat the C# a little...I already drop the F lever note a lot....

Doc Hall · Post by **Doc Hall** » 15 Apr 2014 8:59 am

Steve, that C# gives me fits. I seldom get it to where I'm totally comfortable with it.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 15 Apr 2014 9:48 am

That pesky C# is EXACTLY why I changed my tuning (I've shared it on other threads: EVERYTHING at 0 except C#, G#, A# and E#/F. They're ET-4). Thirds are sweeter than ET, and they're not horrid when 3 becomes 5.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 15 Apr 2014 9:55 am

Lane-
What about D# - the third of the V chord? Strings 4 & 8,and string 2?

And C# is the root of the A+F chord - maybe just play that more above the fret?

Folks-
Sorry to have created YATT (Yet Another Tuning Thread) - but I haven't seen one that is aimed at making the whole band sound good, not at making the steel sound good.....

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 15 Apr 2014 10:39 am

Right you are, Steve. I knew I left one off.
As to your second point, our job is to fit in with the band, not fix them. Which is why I ditched JI.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 15 Apr 2014 10:42 am

Steve: Don't apologize to anyone...I've read a ton of these threads and everytime I walk a way feeling like I learned something.

This forum is about gettin that last 20% out of ourselves and our guitar, and every bit helps!

I know I have to get more scientific about my tuning...I have a methodology that gives me more sustain than I had a year ago (a bit of harmonic tuning adjustments made that happen).

Also, the one chord that really jumps out at me (universal tuning) is my P5 chord (with the E's lowered eg. E9/B6). If my guitar sounded like that chord in all the lever combinations, I'd really feel like I knew what I was doing! Time to get out the microscope on tuning and figure out how those intervals are stacking!

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 15 Apr 2014 10:51 am

Whatever the amount is that you flat your 3rds (G# and C#), you need to double that for the F lever. Make sure that the A lever minor chord (C#m) sounds in tune, and then tune the F lever. You might have to consciously aim sharp with the bar when playing the A+F position, but it will sound in tune.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 15 Apr 2014 11:13 am

BUT that makes the augmented chord wonky. By having C#, G# and E# all 4 cents flat, you end up with an ET chord , and the stage is full of those anyway.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 15 Apr 2014 11:27 am

Steve - sorry, yes JI is correct and JT is sloppy. I may have been influenced by comparisons of "just and even temperament", which I guess saves words (which I have just failed to do)

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 15 Apr 2014 11:37 am

Lane-
4 cents? 4/100 of a half-step? Isn't that just barely at the level of audibility?

Eliminating the beats seems to take MUCH more than that...maybe 10 times that?

(I only have a Boss TU-2 so I can't tell accurately about cents)

..and I agree on really flat F-lever, A+F needs all the help it can get...
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EDIT:
Lane -
I just checked to see where my ear had put me - my iPhone has an accurate tuner with cents indicated - and all the thirds are EXACTLY 4 cents flat!!(except the F, which is a bit more). 4 cents difference may be just barely audible, but it makes a big difference in noticeable beat frequencies being annoying or not...

And flatting the C# really did make that A+B a lot nicer....I'll just slant a bit and play above the fret for the A+F

Thank you, I guess you nailed it for where I want to be...

And my Boss tuner is easy - the two red lights to the left of center, when both lit, are 4 cents down....

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 15 Apr 2014 11:44 am

Dangerous to get in between b0b and Lane! But I like a proper A/F chord to match the pedals-up and pedals-down inversions - why should it be a poor relation? And an augmented chord will always be wonky. Is the raised 5th a major 3rd above the 3rd or a minor 6th above the root? It can't be both, so however you define it, the chord is dissonant.

Bill Moore (RIP) · Post by **Bill Moore (RIP)** » 15 Apr 2014 12:11 pm

Steve, 4 cents is a full 100% of a half tone. 8 cents equals a full tone. Aside from that, here's my take; we can't be solely responsible for the band sounding it tune. The other players must tune up and stay in tune too. Don't worry about the guitar player, get yourself playing in tune. If things don't sound right, some of the others need to make adjustments. Some very experienced guitarists are too casual about tuning their instruments. That's a problem for the steel guitar player. We are trying to play in tune with with people that are out of tune; it won't work. Everyone in the band has to take it seriously. I tune my guitar and keep it in tune. If the band sounds off, I know my instrument is not the cause of it.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 15 Apr 2014 12:18 pm

Bill-
I agree that we all have to be in tune...I just want the band to sound good when that happens.

Semitone=100 cents, by the way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(music)

Bill Moore (RIP) · Post by **Bill Moore (RIP)** » 15 Apr 2014 12:29 pm

Steve, I use tuner settings that are close to the Jeff Newman chart. I do tune the F raise on 4 and 8 to about 338. Jeff called for the E's to be 442.5, I settle for 442. My guitars sound in tune, and I am able to play in tune with others. No problems, unless someone else is way out of tune. They are the ones that need to make adjustments, not me. Tuners that are marked in cents, show 8 cents to a full tone. On the Newman chart, he shows the E's at +10 cents, or 442.5.

Edited to add; you really need a more refined tuner, get a cheap korg chromatic tuner. They are marked in cents and also hertz. A guitar players pedal tuner is just not detailed enough, in my opinion anyway.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 15 Apr 2014 12:44 pm

hey friend....let's go down to the legion hall and jam this afternoon.

sorry, can't make it. i'm not through talking about tuning yet.

Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » 15 Apr 2014 12:47 pm

My tuner doesn't display cents too well, to follow your tuning Lane, would setting it to 439 HZ be close enough for the -4 cents strings and 438 for the -8 E ?

Being a rank beginner I have not concerned myself too much with non Equal Temperment, but the more I play I am beginning to notice that some things could be a bit more harmonious.

That being said, I realize this thread discusses playing with a group, which I hope someday to do, but as a beginner playing alone, how critical is all of this? Does that depend on one's ear for pitch and personal taste perhaps?

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 15 Apr 2014 1:09 pm

Bill-
"Es at +10 cents"- I think you mean "+10 Hz." if 8 cents is a whole tone, that would put your Es at above F#.... A is 440 Hz, not 440 cents....tuner calibration must be in Hz above/below concert pitch?

A lifetime of 6-string guitar playing - just turning the knob till the light goes green means I still have stuff to learn about what it all means...actually, we never had tuners back then, it was just get a note from the guy in the band who had perfect pitch and hit the harmonics...

Bill Moore (RIP) · Post by **Bill Moore (RIP)** » 15 Apr 2014 1:25 pm

Steve, I guess we are even; you are right about 100 cents to a tone and I'm right about how to tune a pedal steel guitar.