I Hate That Pedal Steel Lick...

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 31 Oct 2003 3:42 pm

Just one minute there, Mr. Steele...
How could a Sax Man get lick?

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 31 Oct 2003 7:11 pm

It was one of Lester's signature embellishments to find two different fingerings for the same note, and alternate back and forth between them at lightning speed, displaying the obvious different in timbre between the two... much like a stringed instrument player playing the same note on different strings.
I'd still guess it was Lester, who was recording when Charlie Christian was still a bass player in Texas.
-John

Marc Weller · Post by **Marc Weller** » 31 Oct 2003 11:19 pm

.[This message was edited by Marc weller on 31 October 2003 at 11:23 PM.]

Niklas Widen · Post by **Niklas Widen** » 1 Nov 2003 12:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder who Django got it from
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Lester Young.
-John
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or, more likely, from Charlie Christian, who used it years earlier. That's probably where Chuck Berry picked it up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I guess that's right...I remember reading somewhere that Chuck was a huge Charlie Christian fan...Still think Django did it best though!

/Nicke W

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 1 Nov 2003 1:41 am

Smart Move Mike W

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 1 Nov 2003 5:45 am

Horn players call it "false fingering".

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 1 Nov 2003 7:45 am

What? The echo lick is banned????
I just got on here this morning and saw this. Oh my god....I used that lick last night. I am now in hiding...

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 1 Nov 2003 8:00 am

I'd guess that Django came up with it on his own way before he would have heard Lester. It's just a natural lick that falls under the hand for string instruments. I wouldn't be surprised to hear it in Armstrong or Eddie Lang's music. T-Bone Walker and many 1940's swing guitarists used it as did Tal Farlow in the 50s, wo\ho used his tremendous reach to finger it on adjacent strings for a manual chorus effect.[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 01 November 2003 at 08:01 AM.]

Roger Snively · Post by **Roger Snively** » 1 Nov 2003 8:05 am

I use the 1st and 3rd(same note) along with the 2nd and 4th string (same note) combos a lot and I like it!. L. Green and J. Douglas, to name a few, can sound better playing "out of tune" than most of us can in tune. And if they've got ANY licks that I can copy, I'll do it! I'm just like a deer at a salt block, I'll take all the licks I can get.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 1 Nov 2003 8:59 am

Terry, thank you for the compliment I am glad you enjoyed my tape. I do wish Lloyd would speak for himself though as oppossed to have anyone else do that. After all, so many of us have looked up to him through the years. I also wish that we would not say things on this forum that we would not say to a persons face, this is the downside of the forum and the main reason I and others choose to be silent most of the time.

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Johnny Cox (Team Millennium)
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Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 1 Nov 2003 11:03 am

I hate "Forum Bashing".
It is the members that make this Forum what it is, no more, no less.

If more people contributed positively to discussions, instead of joining in later to only critize the discussion, the nay-sayers would be even more in the minority.

Sorry to stray off topic, but this happens all too often and really bugs me.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 1 Nov 2003 11:46 am

This "lick" takes absolutly no talent or expertise to play

Finally, something that I can master!

...(in about 8 months)

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 1 Nov 2003 11:47 am

..that heretical lick. -Lloyd Green-

Reading this whole thread was worth it for those three words.

I again reviewed the Seven Deadly Sins, and find "Heresy" nowhere.

Long before it appeared on the list, I'd chose Complexity anyhow.

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Louis Armstrong as the source of a major amount of "jazz phrazes" like This One..

I'm sure he got them somewhere too..

All can probably traced back to one of the Muses. Herbert, the Heretical one..

Now if we could just figure out where THIS ONE came from....

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 1 Nov 2003 1:53 pm

And I thought Perlowin was touchy...
BUT SERIOUSLY, I remember reading an interview with Keith Richards years ago, where he said,"There's only been one song written, and Adam and Eve wrote it."
Except for mechanical function, who can lay claim to ANY lick? On a PSG, a lever and/or pedal can be rigged to make a particular move. But a line of notes, or a chord? We ain't come up with nothin'!
That being said, Lloyd Green, Paul Franklin, and Bobbe Seymour are ALL great players, as we all already know.
And the only reason us guitar players started using an unwound third string, was to bend it up to the same pitch as the second string.
And Carl, you're a good guy, but you're judging again.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Nov 2003 7:03 am

It's called a signature lick I believe and don't we all wish we had been the first to use it?

I have signature licks too, but I call them 'ruts'.

I wish Lloyd were a member of this forum so he could post freely and at will.

Lloyd has been banned from posting here. He's such a troublemaker!

Seriously, I've offered Lloyd a free membership, but so far he has declined to take it. Maybe someone closer to him can talk him into it. All it takes is an email.

Back to the subject... I like "the lick" when used as a connector between phrases at different positions. I don't use it, though, because I don't really think of it. It's not one of my 'ruts'.

As for the F# to G# change, few people understand its use as well as Paul Franklin. I don't have it on my guitar because I'm afraid of falling into a 'rut' with it, as so many amateur players do.

Nobody understands the potential of E9th bar slants on the top strings better than Lloyd Green. I haven't 'done the math', but I tend to trust his analysis on this. I haven't heard any F#-G# licks on the radio that couldn't be done with slants and F#-G.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
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Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 2 Nov 2003 1:09 pm

a couple of things;
first, i like LLoyds richocchet(sp?)lick, even though it may not be indigenous to psg,(referring to the Chuck Berry mention).
If youve never tried to play it, Id recommend some left hand fret to fret exercises before attempting it.

Second, as for the F# to G# raise on string one; its a nice change however one decides to use it. Thanx to Buddy Gene for coming up with it before he moved back to Nashville from Ca. around '74-'75. (listen to "Pins & Needles" on Darrell McCall's "Lily Dale" album).
Perhaps the change would make more sense to some & help diminish the boredom factor prieviously expressed by others if the move is combined with the 2nd string 1/2 tone raise as PF uses it sometimes. Double unisons are something that no other instrument is really capable of as far as i know. Additionally, Pete Burak played me an interesting twist on the string 1 & 4 unison the other day in a speed picking lick; very swift.
Ive found that the best thing for me however, is to split up the strings 1 & 2 changes. Since I already had it on my guitar from the early 70's(ala Buddy),adding the 2nd string change separate from the 1st string offered me many more possibilities for chromatic ideas, chords, etc.
After a time & due to the addition of other changes i felt were more benefical, I combined the strings 1 & 2 changes on 1 knee lever. Ive regretted it ever since, but im out of knees(anatomically spreaking) so any ideas as to another placement for it would be welcomed...and keep 'er clean, boys

mc

ps. i wouldnt argue with John Steele on matters of jazz & be-bop:-)[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 02 November 2003 at 01:14 PM.][This message was edited by Mike Cass on 02 November 2003 at 01:16 PM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 2 Nov 2003 2:09 pm

b0b.... I should explain that I raise the F#'s to G and then to G# on the same lever. The F# to G mathematics are ALL there at the half stop. I trust your mathematical skills are more than sufficient to see why there would be more variables this way.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 02 November 2003 at 03:16 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 02 November 2003 at 07:15 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 02 November 2003 at 07:16 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Nov 2003 3:41 pm

Thanks for clarifying that, Paul.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 2 Nov 2003 3:44 pm

Bob...I keep on trying to add something but the edit function is stubborn.[This message was edited by Franklin on 02 November 2003 at 03:50 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 2 Nov 2003 4:16 pm

Well my "Aha Moments" happen more than to some, but I just had a "big one". It's the upside of being a bush league bonehead I guess..

In being limited somewhat by "stock changes" on My old ProIII I find that that especially the lower F# to G# brings in a lot of things besides the "double" note lick. It's also (duh..) the 6th to maj7 with the pedals down. ( A C6th "sound").. and an easier way to do "bakersfield" low comping.

Rather than having to install a half stop mechanism I set mine so that the top f# only goes up to G, as standard and it's pull "stop" works as a good "half stop" for feeling the lower one. If it works well and I can see using it more on the chromatics it won't be that hard to fab a double stop.

I'm going to try it for a couple weeks and see how it plays onstage.

(BTW, besides the standards and the "Ricky Scaggs" uses, theres the "Chase each other round the room" lick and the "Way I am" intro.)

Nice.

Thanks!

EJL

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 2 Nov 2003 6:17 pm

What is "the Ricochet lick" that you all are getting so worked up about?
Sorry, but I don't understand the text descriptions in this thread.

Jerry Roller posted" <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Man Terry, I love that ricochet lick. Loyd
even has a Dobro instrumental totally based on that lick I believe the name of the song is "Ricochet".
Jerry<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>but I can't find it on WinMX, nor at Rebel and Ricky's.
Jerry further says

It is a pretty heavily used lick these days.

so can somebody point me to one of those places where it is heavily used so I can hear what all the fuss is about?

BTW thanks to you all, especially the underappreciated prima donnas, for this amusing thread.

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 2 Nov 2003 8:58 pm

Earnest, Lloyds instrumental "Ricochet" on Dobro did the ricochet lick by hitting first string open, slide into second string 3rd fret, slide into 3rd string 7th fret, slide into 4th string 12th fret, then went on with the melody. As you can see it is just a lick in which you hit a note and move down a string and hit the same note, down another string and hit the same note and continue as long as you want to or until you run out of strings. On "Ricochet" it is a series of the same note "D" hit on first, second, third and forth strings. Often times the lick is done in a rapid strings of notes. Junior Knight is a master of the lick. It is really not as easy to do and make it sound really good as it might seem. I hope this helps.
Jerry[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 02 November 2003 at 09:00 PM.][This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 02 November 2003 at 09:01 PM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 2 Nov 2003 9:02 pm

Earnest - the best example I know is Lloyd's extended 'outro' on Skagg's 'Nothing Can Hurt You' a few years ago (a series of successive root notes played in different positions on the neck - the change in position/string, etc, and the resulting variation in tone lending the phrase a certain piquancy).

I think his work on that track is among the best E9th playing I know - that 'device' is used to great effect and is a focal point of the piece.

I'm still trying to figure out how someone would find it irksome!

RR

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 3 Nov 2003 7:56 am

Having trouble finding out why it is so erksome? Actually, the lick doesn't bother me played very tastefully when it makes sense and fits the melody but unfortunately, as has been proven here, everybody seems to love this lick so well that everybody seems to be playing it indiscriminately in every song they know.
Another steel guitar player and I went into a restaurant called the LongHorn steak house where they play albums of present singers of fame. During one complete CD we counted the lick being played 21 times on this one CD.
This is why I don't like this lick. I do not remember Lloyd Green ever playing this lick but perhaps he uses it so tastfully and sparcely that it is not aggravating. To me this was proof that it is a crutch and the player playing it really did have no imagination to play anything more tasteful. I do not know who the player was on this session and believe I would rather not know. As I just said, the fact that everyone likes this lick so well and it is so easy to play is undoubtedly one of the reasons it is over-used in the world of steel guitar today.
Come on guys....play the music, be original, be yourselves and forget being a copy of something else good OR bad. There is more to steel guitar than one lick regardless of where it came from.
I am not being negative or nit picky about this series of notes that I feel is over played. But would rather be positively encouraging about not using over-used, worn out signature licks that someone else came up with for themselves. There is world full of music out there, we don't all need to play the same thing.
bobbeseymour

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 3 Nov 2003 9:51 am

Isn't it just a repeated note? Last night I tossed and turned in bed, wondering what depth of musical genius could be invested in that note that people could argue about who did it first.
If I ever hear this "lick", it had better be a great note.