Modern pedal steels - "They all sound the same"

[Ron Scott]

If you would take the effects off and just play straight from guitar,volume pedal,and amp with reverb and you might be hearing a difference but too many players use effects and they make their guitar no matter what kind sound like the last one they played. I know Reverb is an effect too so you might try with out that too. Just my thoughts on this. RS

[Donny Hinson]

It is with some reluctance that, after an absence of a couple of years, I choose to interject on this topic. I do so not to offer my own opinion, as it would likely carry little weight among many of our members. I am not a famous player, nor even a good one, for that matter. But I have collected some wisdom here from time to time, and I wish to share that wisdom so as to not let this discussion simply degrade into the silliness of comparing Les Pauls to Telecasters.

(Both these quotes are directly from Buddy Emmons.)

"I have two Legrande III models, one of which I used on Gene Watson's last album. Just for the record, I used a Carter D-10 on Gene's Gospel album and for all practical purposes, I can't tell a dime's worth of difference, but what do I know?"

"Over the years I've had hundreds of players sit down at The Blade and play through my amp with my tone settings and they ended up sounding like they did on their own guitars."

Food for thought, isn't it?

[James Mayer]

Silly?

Please answer the questions.

1) Why aren't similar "all modern ____ sound the same" discussions being had in guitar forums or even in the "steel without pedals" forum, next door?

2) If Stevie Ray Vaughn played a Les Paul, would he be able to make it quack? What about that nasal in-between/position 2 or 4 tone? What if he had the most state of the art modeler out there?

3) Why does the standard issue jazz guitar only have a neck pickup? Why is it a hollowbody? Why the tone knob if it the amp has an EQ? Couldn't some jazz master pick up any guitar and get that tone?

[Brint Hannay]

Donny, good to see you back!

If I sat down at Buddy's guitar, through his amp with his settings, I guarantee I wouldn't sound like I do with my own guitar.
I'd sound even worse! Because I'd be petrified.

[Jerry Overstreet]

First of all, Donny welcome back. You've been too gone for too long.

Long as we're quoting Emmons, here's one from the "Ask Buddy" site several years ago.

From: Buddy
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 08:18:02
Comments

The Sierra guitar has a soft but deep acoustic resonance that few other guitars have, so it's my favorite for the C6 tuning.

I stand by my first statement. Because I can't identify a particular brand in a blindfold test, doesn't mean they don't sound different.

If you have to tweak settings, then there's another obvious statement that they don't sound the same.

Yes, they do have share similar qualities in many cases. Same strings, same tunings, same amps and effects. A player can tweak equipment for a similar sound. Similar is not the same as the same.

Ken, if you search the forum with words like "sound" or "tone" in the pedal steel categoy you will find contradictory posts from the same participants in both threads talking about the sound or tone of this, that or the other guitar.

In many years and dozens of pedal steels, I've never owned or played 2 that sound the same. Even among 3 of the same brand and construction. That's proof enough for me.

Whether others want to accept or admit that sonic characteristics vary from guitar to guitar is of no consequence to me. I've proven it to myself over and over again and that's all I care about.

[James Mayer]

Similar is not the same as the same.

I agree with this. The tones of modern pedal steels are similar enough to mistakenly write "same" when I should have written "very very similar".

[Lane Gray]

Similar is not the same as the same.

No, but they're similar

I agree with this. The tones of modern pedal steels are similar enough to mistakenly write "same" when I should have written "very very similar".

I played one guy's Sho-Bud Crossover one time at a show. The guy was getting straight Don Helms kinda tone out of it through a Twin. When I hit it, I sounded like me, but with a hint of Sho-Bud quack.

When I sit behind a Stringmaster, I sound like me.

We sound similar because we've taught our right hands to produce that sound.

[Donny Hinson]

Silly?

Please answer the questions.

James, I do not mean to be insensitive or unobliging, but this topic is about pedal steels, and it is my opinion that bringing other instruments into the discussion (such as lap steels, Les Pauls, Hawaiian consoles, Telecasters, jazz-boxes or Danelectros) is just pulling us away from the subject we should be discussing. I feel that more will be gained if we avoid that which is not really germane to the topic at hand. And should you or anyone else find this viewpoint offensive, I do sincerely apologize.

[Frank Montmarquet]

I have read that the older Emmons push/pulls had good sustain and good tone. In order to have good sustain the energy in the vibrating sting has to stay there, you do not want it to dissipate in any way. If the stings vibrations are coupled to the body of the guitar, that would remove energy and ruin the sustain. The heavy push/pull changer vibrates less, and so it is said that is responsible for the good sustain.

So maybe everyone has it backwards, the good push/pull tone is due to the strings NOT interacting with the body, just pure string tone shaped by the pickup. The more the body vibrates, the less the sustain, and the poorer the tone.

[James Mayer]

Silly?

Please answer the questions.

James, I do not mean to be insensitive or unobliging, but this topic is about pedal steels, and it is my opinion that bringing other instruments into the discussion (such as lap steels, Les Pauls, Hawaiian consoles, Telecasters, jazz-boxes or Danelectros) is just pulling us away from the subject we should be discussing. I feel that more will be gained if we avoid that which is not really germane to the topic at hand. And should you or anyone else find this viewpoint offensive, I do sincerely apologize.

Man, I'm not offended at all. I only chose the those brands of guitars assuming everyone here has probably played them at some point and with the understanding that most sound tech/modeling/effects are made for that market. Someone else referenced technology as leveling the playing field and I disagree. I also think there is such a wide spectrum of recorded tones using guitars that it puts in perspective just how "samey" pedal steel tones are. We can have this be a nitpicking discussion about minute differences but I don't think that's what people mean when they say "all modern pedal steels sound the same".

I think the inclusion of non-pedal steel into the discussion is relevant because I hear a far broader spectrum for that instrument, as well.

I should point out that I love the sound of pedal steel. I think it's an amazing instrument. It's just surprising to me that with the innovative minds and mechanical inclinations of it's builders and players, there aren't more tones out there.

[Ken Byng]

The phrase accoustic resonance was used in an earlier post, and I believe it to be highly relevant. That is where I think any significant difference in 'sound' 'tone' or 'timbre' lies.

However, when many of us strive to get a stereotypical tone when we play, EQ our amps to achieve this and have almost uniform hand positioning, its no wonder that the end product can be less than distinctive.

The generalising statement that my friend made that modern pedal steels sounding the same was probably more to do with the style of playing of the majority of players than the guitar itself.

Donny Hinson - your 2 year exile is way too long. Your intelligent and articulate thoughts are badly missed here, so welcome back.

[b0b]

Good point, Ken. The are two very popular topics right now. This one, and the one "all pull closest to the emmons push pull in tone????". As long as the majority steel players want to achieve a very specific sound, steel builders will try to satisfy them.

The Desert Rose "Delta Blues" model is a hit among players who want a funkier, more versatile tone, but those players are a very small market. All of my beginning students want to get the classic country sound. That's what attracts them to pedal steel.

[Richard Damron]

James Mayer - Re: - Your last sentence.

In another thread - quite recently - I voiced the obvious advantage of a movable pickup over the standard fixed - in one location - pickup found on virtually all guitars. I also mentioned that my friend, Georg Sortun, has had one on his Dekley for many a moon. Paul Franklin was quick to point out that his Dad had experimented with a slanted pickup many years ago but it "didn't catch on". The reason(s) why it "didn't catch on" are to be found within other posts in this thread - in particular, b0b's last one. The primary advantage to the movable pickup is that one can selectively detect the ratio of the fundamental frequency to the harmonics, thereby achieving a baseline "tone" to which one can judiciously and minimally apply EQ to taste. b0b has alluded to the notion that most folks want the "classic country sound" and need go no further than the garden-variety PSG produced by the vast majority of builders.

Ken Byng - I must agree with your friend's general assessment. Since, as b0b has noted, most folks are desirous of the classic country sound, then is it no wonder that, for the past 30 years or so, all PSG's are of the "cookie-cutter" variety? I can attribute that phrase to Georg Sortun, once again, but the validity in the statement is above reproach. There's not a nickel's worth of difference between all so-called "modern" guitars IF one were to play them through an audiophile amplifier with no EQ whatsoever.

I, once again, find it frustrating that more players are NOT desirous of a unique and different tone. Granted, there ARE some instruments whose timbre sets them apart from the field, but the clamor for more of the same uniqueness is just not there. For shame.

Then again - as I've stated many times before - "personal preference" rules. In this case, it is a stereotypical tone which prevails. It is this narrow and myopic view which will inhibit, if not prevent, any meaningful exploration into the physics of the tone generation mechanisms of the instrument. We are left with an assembly line in which the "cookie-cutter" is the major machine. It might, in a sense, be termed "mass-production". Wasn't it Henry Ford who stated that you could have one of his Model A's - as long as it was black?

Maybe he was onto something, there. A black car will outperform any other color - just as with PSG's. Within the current climate, then, you can have any make or color of PSG - as long as it sounds "country".

In summation, then, one can attribute this whole mess to that tenet of capitalism - supply and demand. Demand being the driving force.

Guess I'll have to design and build my own.

Richard

[James Mayer]

I have a Lone Star 6-string pedal steel that has two movable pickups. The reason I went with that brand is the builder's willingness to be different.

Anyway, I think we've all come to the same conclusion here. The pedal steel world is dominated by country. Nothing new.

[James Mayer]

Look at THIS.

That's got the same pickups and hardware as my Teisco lap steel, which sounds fantastic (and nothing like a pedal steel). Two pickups, and it could probably be played on your lap. Although, my Teisco has below average sustain so I'd be wary of that on a PSG.

If I didn't already have way too much gear, I'd bid.

[Ken Byng]

Good point, Ken. The are two very popular topics right now. This one, and the one "all pull closest to the emmons push pull in tone????". As long as the majority steel players want to achieve a very specific sound, steel builders will try to satisfy them.

The Desert Rose "Delta Blues" model is a hit among players who want a funkier, more versatile tone, but those players are a very small market. All of my beginning students want to get the classic country sound. That's what attracts them to pedal steel.

b0b
Perhaps the attraction of 'the classic country sound' by your students is the single most limiting factor in the development of pedal steel. It is capable of so much more, and really we have just scratched the surface of its potential. I say this as someone who loves the E9 country stuff. When I listen to things like Bobbe Seymour's Rhythmatic album, B J Cole's version of Clair De Lune and some of Mike Perlowin's material, I think it takes real guts to get away from the mainstream style of playing and explore different musical paths.

Doing so would go some way to contradict the perception that all modern pedal steel's sound the same.

Richard D.
Movable and interchangeable pickups are not new, but I totally agree that it would give much needed variation at the disposal of the player.

[Reece Anderson]

When a desired like tone is achieved on mainstream steel guitars, and players can't see the guitar being played and cannot consistently identify any specific guitar or inherent tone, even when different people play them, the question then becomes, what difference does it make......if there is no difference?

The only difference, is in each individuals perception and touch!

[b0b]

b0b
Perhaps the attraction of 'the classic country sound' by your students is the single most limiting factor in the development of pedal steel.

I'm not about to blame beginners for limiting the development of the pedal steel. If anyone is responsible for that, it's the accomplished players who are unwilling to expand their horizons, for one reason or another.

He not busy being born is busy dying.

[Ken Byng]

b0b
Perhaps the attraction of 'the classic country sound' by your students is the single most limiting factor in the development of pedal steel.

I'm not about to blame beginners for limiting the development of the pedal steel. If anyone is responsible for that, it's the accomplished players who are unwilling to expand their horizons, for one reason or another.

He not busy being born is busy dying.

I wasn't blaming your students b0b. Far from it - we need as much new blood to take on the instrument to secure its long term future. It is the association of cliché-ridden pedal steel to country music that limits it. I am as guilty as anyone in persuing the well worn E9 country road.

Reece
We have had interesting off-forum discussions about tone in the past, and in this case I won't dispute about what comes out of an amplifier speaker having a leveling effect on the tone of a steel guitar. That was as a result of me struggling to differentiate between 2 recordings - one where an MSA Millennium was used, and the other where a leading alternative manufacturer's guitar was used (by the same player playing the same piece in both instances).

I will maintain that when a pedal steel has certain 'accoustic resonance' by way of overtones, sustain, high register string separation, the player will, in the majority of cases, be affected by what they feel through the guitar as 'tone'.

Because of the variances in construction type and materials of modern pedal steels, I maintain that it would be impossible for them all to sound the same. I don't want to get into a "tone is all in the hands" as that has been exhausted to death in other threads. The original post was that a friend was of the opinion that all modern pedal steels sound the same. I repeat - that is impossible.

[Reece Anderson]

Ken B....I appreciate your usual kind response. It's always a pleasure to discuss anything with you.

Am I to understand there is a perception that when someone is playing an unplugged guitar while blindfolded and feeling only the strings, that it's possible for someone to consistently identify a specific steel guitar or brand of guitar?

Even IF it were possible, (and I'm convinced it can't be done consistently) I don't see what difference it would make even if one could, when the end result of all things inclusive, is the audible sound/tone and no one can hear the difference.

[Ken Byng]

Reece
It is more difficult to A/B guitars blindly at the end of the music chain - unless each guitar is played with identical tone settings. To my aging ears, ZB guitars, older Emmons and MCI guitars have very distinctive higher registers. I cannot tell the difference between my push pull and my MCI when I have recorded them without any backing. However, my Sho-Bud is very different from my Emmons. I am confident that I could tell the difference blindfold if the amp's tone controls were left untouched.

I will say this - there is no modern pedal steel guitar that I am aware of that doesn't sound good. Its increasingly difficult to discern between many of them, but if a Sierra was played back to back with my Emmons guitars with the tone settings on the amp, again I would suggest that I could hear the difference while blindfolded. While I am certainly not advocating that I could consistently pick out every single manufacture of guitar (I couldn't), there are some makes that are markedly different in their basic timbre.

Years ago when I was working in a studio much of the time, I recorded quite a lot with a ZB. I later changed it for a Sho-Bud. There was a lot of difference in the recordings to my ears, especially on the lower strings.

To say that all pedal steels sound the same is just too wide sweeping a statement.

I always enjoy debating steel guitar with you Reece, and you always respect other people's opinions even though you may have infinitely more ability and experience on the instrument.

[Reece Anderson]

Ken B.....I appreciate your kind response.

I suppose I might be considered a good guesser were I to identify some guitars if the amp controls were left untouched, however I don't know of anyone who has ever played who didn't touch the amp controls to get their desired tone.

Since that's true, and the controls are there for the purpose of altering the sound, I don't understand what difference it makes if guitars sound different when using the same amp settings, when in reality each player sets the amp controls which when matched to the sound of any other guitar, cannot be consistently identified by those who can't see it.

Next time you're in Dallas I hope we can get together, and when we do, dinner is on me.

[Tracy Sheehan]

Hey Reece. Here is my 2cents worth. After working for you a short time back in the early 70s and going back on the road i finally sold my ZB and got the D10 MSA because the ZB only had a single raise and lower. The first thing i ever did when considering a new steel was looking under the hood.

I have noticed so many steelers claim so and so has the greatest tone,ect. then comments on hearing or seeing a steel player on tv or recording and asking what kind of steel was he playing? How many expert steel players have walked into a club that has a steel player then walks up to the band stand to see what brand of steel he was playing?

I am being a little factious here but it is true.
Any ways,take care my friend. Tracy

[Ken Byng]

No Reece - it will be on me. (And I hope that you bring both Mrs Andersons with you).

[Alan Brookes]

I'm always taken aback by how different different steel guitars can sound, even two instruments with the same pickups. I have two identical Sho-Bud Crossovers which sound completely different from each other. That being so, it would be difficult to recommend one brand over another when two identical instruments of the same brand can't be expected to sound the same.