Modern pedal steels - "They all sound the same"

[Ken Byng]

That comment was made to me on the phone recently by a fellow steel player in the UK. The basis of his opinion is that most modern guitars have similar body construction, similar body woods (either hard rock maple or birdseye maple), similar changers (scissor type) and the same pickups. (The latter on the basis that few manufacturers produce their own stock pickups, but buy in from third party suppliers).

I disagreed with him, and said that GFI guitars for example sound different to Show Pro, and that Emmons LeGrandes sound different to Sierras to name just 4 makes. While modern CNC machines allow for little variances in tolerance, I believe that there will always be variables not only between makes, but even between manufacturer's own models. That is the beauty of wood I guess. The only modern guitar that would have consistent signature tone would be the MSA Millennium.

[Richard Damron]

Ken -

It should be noted that, although differences abound between makes, they are subtle, at best. Experience has shown that attempting to select a particular instrument from several makes is a problematical venture to say the least.

It might also be noted that the GFI uses maple die board as the substrate for the formica. It is a very dense "plywood" - not subject to warping or cracking and relatively impervious to moisture. This, in contrast to the lumber used in most other makes and in which the grain is allowed to fall where it may.

Let us not become encumbered with the "it's in the hands" argument but center our thoughts upon the design and construction.

I must, once again, ask the same question that I've posed a hundred times before here on the forum: - Why?

Richard

[Johan Jansen]

how come my ears tell me the diffenence between 2 steelguitars, same brand, same model?
Each guitar has it's own character

JJ

[Ray Montee (RIP)]

I sense that the close similarity in sound in all models of todays current crop of pedal steels is actually rooted in the manner in which they are all being played.

Curley Chalker always had a FAT, full bodied, bassy tone. Easily identifiable.

Buddy Emmons always demonstrated a full bodied, mellow tone. Always pleasant to listen to. Never too loud; never to shrill!

Jeff Newman nearly always had a piercing, treble sound on all strings.

I see from where I stand here on the LEFT EDGE of THE USA, that that similar sound reference really has more to do with where the players' right hand is located in relation to the pickup further augmented by the dials on the amp and how man foot stomp boxes he/she might be going thro'.

Just my observation.

[Bob Hoffnar]

If somebody tells me that all new brands of steels sound the same it means that they cannot hear the difference. If they are unable to hear it then a conversation about it is pointless. Mostly guys that say things like that are just trying to make whatever old steel they have seem more important or that the crappy steel they own is just as good as all the others.

[Jerry Overstreet]

That's a ridiculous statement that all guitars sound the same. It just is not true. Do all electric 6 string guitars sound the same? Do all lap steels sound the same? Of course not and neither do pedal steels.

Because one player can eq, tweak and squeeze similar tone out of different guitars doesn't mean that inherent tonal characteristics do not exist among them.

[James Mayer]

Call me ridiculous, but I've said the same thing. In the guitar world, there's a huge variety of sounds, whether it be acoustic or electric, before amps and effects even come into the equation. Surely there are subtle differences in makes and brands of modern pedal steels, but it sounds (to me) like they are all aiming for the same tone. Slight variations of the same thing. Vanilla vs French Vanilla vs Vanilla Bean isn't really variation worth discussing. Go compare a Tele, a Les Paul, a Ric, a Gretsch and a Danelectro and you've got a far broader spectrum of sounds, regardless of where the picking hand is placed or which pickup is selected. You might point out that I've only sat at a handful of pedal steels. However, even in youtube clips and studio recordings, the "sameness" is very apparent where the difference in guitars is obvious.

What percentage of people on this forum are using Boss pedals through a Peavey and setting the mid-shift on 800? Yeah, I've done plenty of reading in the archives. My impression is that most pedal steel players are not interested in signature tones and want to sound samey. The builders have probably reached the same conclusion and are building what will sell.

Then again, maybe it's the fault of country music. Go ahead, roll your eyes, but how many country guitarists are playing a Tele through a Fender amp and a compressor pedal?

[Paddy Long]

Hi Ken I agree that even the same brand guitars can have subtle differences in tone ... I have 2 Zums, a 2001 standard changer and a 2008 Zum Hybrid and I can hear and feel the difference in tone between the 2 .. it can be a subtle difference that maybe only I feel -- but it's in the feedback I get from the Hybrid when I play it, that keeps dragging me back to that guitar.... both guitars are Mica - but there is a difference in the tone !
Having said that the older guitar is stunning on it's own -- but the Hybrid -- OOOOOOOoooooohhh !!!

[Doug Beaumier]

I think someone who says that all modern steel guitars sound the same means... as compared to the older steel guitars, Sho-Bud, Emmons, etc. I would agree with that. There are small differences in the tone of the new guitars, but none of them sound like the vintage ones IMO. I think it's a matter of one's frame of reference.

I agree with Ray that the style of playing all sounds "the same" today, as compared to the players of yesteryear. In the early days we could identify a player on a record within a few seconds. Roy Wiggins, Speedy West, Chalker, Sneaky Pete, and many others had their own sound, instantly identifiable. I could spot Lloyd Green's sound on a 1970s recording in a second. That's not so easy to do today.

[Roger Rettig]

I agree, Doug, but I think that today's recording techniques with that seemingly narrower fequency width and generally 'thinner' sound is a big factor in all this.

Add to that the inescapable truth that, these days, it's much rarer for the steel player to be asked to provide the song's 'signature' intro or figures. There is much more in the way of background 'pads' being played nowadays, hence it's more difficult to hear steel guitar in its own space.

[Micky Byrne]

Pady Paddy Paddy.......control yourself on your Hybrid it's not a woman me old mate


Micky Byrne U.K.

[Billy Tonnesen]

Since the Pedal Steel on current Country Recording has been relagated more or less to a "support" sound, the recording engineer probably will make it sound the same no matter who is doing the playing. When a French Horn is used in a recording it will basically sound the same and you will never know by listening who is playing it. IMHO !

[Paddy Long]

Micky, sorry mate, it was a moment of weakness

[Bo Legg]

All PSG's sound the same in that they all will sound good if you turn all the tone knobs on a good PSG amp till you find that sweet spot.

[b0b]

All PSG's sound the same in that they all will sound good if you turn all the tone knobs on a good PSG amp till you find that sweet spot.

You beat me to it, Bo. The only guitars that don't sound the same to me are the antiques, which tend to sound tinny. Virtually all modern guitars can be "dialed in" to the sound I like.

Of course, at my age my ears are shot anyway, so what do I know...

[Richard Damron]

B0b -

Good point. Excellent point. The "ears", inevitably, get lost in these directionless discussions.

Richard

[Gary Shepherd]

I think, like with regular guitars, it doesn't really matter what kind of guitar you play anymore. A large portion of "the sound" comes from the amp and/or effects you're playing through. Nowadays, a $50 electric guitar can sound just as good as a $3k guitar with the right extra gear.

[Lane Gray]

I submit the hands play a greater role than either the guitar or the amp.
Albert Lee or Mark Knopfler will sound better on a Silvertone through a Pignose than I would sound on their gear.
See Johnny Cox's post about fooling what were knowledgeable ears.

Modern steels sound the same because everyone wants/expects a sound like Bruce Bouton got on the Ricky Skaggs records/Paul gets on his hits/Lloyd on "Farewell Party."
Nobody's TRYING to sound like Chalker, so nobody does.

[Christopher Woitach]

Reece Anderson did a fairly conclusive experiment a while back - its probably somewhere here on the forum.

[James Mayer]

Nowadays, a $50 electric guitar can sound just as good as a $3k guitar with the right extra gear.

That's a myth. No amount of extreme EQing or modeling will make a Telecaster sound just like a Les Paul. There's a huge difference in sustain that cannot be artificially replicated without adding loads of compression that would create a different and unique attack envelope. The difference in scale length, bolt on vs set neck, humbucker vs single coil, tonewood, etc etc is going to shine through. You can't artificially add treble, sustain etc without side effects that make it not worth the effort.

If your statement were true, the "pros" would be playing plywood with the cheapest pickups possible and we'd be able to use modeling to make anyone's vocals sound like someone else's. The statement "crap in equals crap out" is still true in the audio world.

[Lane Gray]

That's a myth. No amount of extreme EQing or modeling will make a Telecaster sound just like a Les Paul.

Hmmm. For most of his career, Gatton played a 61 Paul. I can't tell the difference between the Tele years and the Paul years.

But when it comes to the steel, since almost all use very nearly the same construction and pickup placement, I don't think Tele v. Paul quite suits the situation. We ALL play a Fender Esquire. And only some of us have the coil tap switch.

[James Mayer]

Here's another theory. You can tell me if it's crap or not. The attack envelope when we pluck a stringed instrument is a significant part of what we perceive as "tone". Is it possible that the universal use of the volume pedal in the steel world neutralizes this factor, creating a feeling of sameness?

[Brint Hannay]

Reece Anderson did a fairly conclusive experiment a while back - its probably somewhere here on the forum.

The conclusiveness of those tests was highly debatable. As Reece described it, the test administrators changed the amp settings from one guitar to another (with the stated purpose of making the guitars sound as similar as possible) before having the "blindfold" test subjects listen to them.

[Fred Rushing]

The thought that Reece made if my memory is correct, was that sight had alot to do with what your think you hear. I agree. I have had the chance to hear BE play various guitars live and on TV over the last 35 years. If I turned my back I would be very hard pressed to know which model he was playing at that time. What I did know was it was Buddy!!!! His tone was very much as it always was. THE WAY HE wanted it to be. He played Jeff Newmans U12 Dekley on Nashville Now and he went both ways. E9 and 6th approach that night. Bet there is not 1 out of a 100 that could have told you what he was playing that night unless you could see the guitar.

Todays guitars are all good and play good. The player will usually sound like himself no matter which one he chooses. That is my experience. JMO.
Fred

[Lee Baucum]

The conclusiveness of those tests was highly debatable. As Reece described it, the test administrators changed the amp settings from one guitar to another (with the stated purpose of making the guitars sound as similar as possible) before having the "blindfold" test subjects listen to them.

That gets us back to the comment made by Bo Legg:

All PSG's sound the same in that they all will sound good if you turn all the tone knobs on a good PSG amp till you find that sweet spot.