Steel V Steel

[Georg Sørtun]

Name your personal poison, folks, and the rest of the world be damned!

Done...

Still interested in seeing/hearing what others come up with though.

[Rusty Rhoads]

like i said one amp one tone setting same volume pedal same place to test this same camera's nothing is going to be false about the test its all even playing field my hand is steady enough to play the same song with the same attack 40 times i can be a machine or as close to one as you can get for a human !!!

THE AMP IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE IN TONE FOR THE WHOLE TEST AND WE CAN SEE WHAT GUITAR'S SUCCEED AND WHICH FAIL THE TEST AS FAR AS TONE AND SUSTAIN WEATHER THE TONE BE BRIGHTER DARKER OR CLOSE TO THE STARTING POINT FLAT RESPONSE THE TEST WILL BE FAIR PERIOD NO TRICK'S OR I WOULD NOT DO THIS TEST THEN YOU CAN ALL WATCH THE VIDEO AND IT WILL TELL YOU THE STORY AND YOU MAKE YOUR OWN DETERMINATION WHICH TONE YOU PREFER AND GUITAR THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF DOING THIS !!!!!!

NOW DO YOU ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING TO YOU ALL

I AM NOT DOING THIS TO BE DIPLOMATIC SCOTT I AM DOING THIS TO SIMPLY SHOW THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN ALL THE GUITARS ON THE MARKET PERIOD I COULD CARE LESS WHAT SOMEONE ELSE'S CHOICE IS AS FAR AS THERE STEEL OR AMP OR OUTBOARD GEAR THIS TEST IS SIMPLE ALL STOCK GUITARS STOCK PICKUPS STOCK AMP SAME SETTINGS TO SEE AND COMPARE TONE NOW DO YOU GET THE EXPERIMENT ? ITS REAL SIMPLE NOTHING FANCY HERE

[Scott Shipley]

RR, you're such a diplomat my friend.
Still think this test would be easier to pull off in Gnashville.

[Richard Damron]

I think that I've made a decent case.

I've been rejected.

I give up.

Oh. And notice - I didn't shout!

[Georg Sørtun]

Not to worry Richard. (And, yes, we noticed you handled it quietly.)
Besides, even with the setup/conditions RR described, such a test may not be entirely useless.

[Joe Casey]

Little ole Tone tester me...

[Larry Tracy]

I agree with Paul, Pete, Richard and everybody else about the variables of the experiment and being totally accurate. Hey it's just Rusty playing a bunch of steels and if he does it I know I am going to be checking it out. It will be fun and interesting and at the least will start a bunch of threads about it. So bring it on Rusty.

[Stu Schulman]

Rusty,I'm having trouble understanding this."and yes formica does colors your tone period not enhance it !!!! would you be so kind as to decipher that comment for me ?Thanks,Stu

[Rusty Rhoads]

next time you play your steel put a towel over your amplifier so it drapes over the speaker or next time u sing put a wind cover on it tell me what happens ?

now put formica over wood what happens ? or for example old MSA fomica over birch wood laminate cabinets did not have any highs or sustain the point is if you put formica over wood your going to loose some high end not gain it wood with glue on it with formica on top of that equal what ?

you answer your own question now
do the math to the equation
its a minus side not a plus

[chris ivey]

rusty baby...could you explain what you mean when you say, 'we'll see which one's fail the test and which ones succeed'...?
this is getting good, keep it up!

[Rusty Rhoads]

why don't you just learn to read BABY and quit being ignorant !!!!!!!!!!!! i hate to be rude but G D !

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

It's true that different guitars require different setting on the amp to bring out their best sound. But it's also true that if you're comparing the inherent characteristics of each guitar, you need to keep the amp setting consistent.

There is a solution to this dilemma: Two samples of each guitar. One with the same amp settings, and one with the amp tweaked to match the guitar.

[Richard Sinkler]

DELETED because of a better understanding of Rusty's plan.

[Georg Sørtun]

FWIW: mika on wood doesn't produce a given effect in an instrument. It depends on goals and production-factors...

Just covering the wood with glued-on mika for looks, and the effect is probably one of degraded sound and sustain. Laminate instead mika and wood properly for looks and tone, and the effect is most likely going to be an enhanced sound and sustain in the instrument.



As I have said in another "test those steels" thread about a year ago: I don't think running a steel through a steel-amp, any steel-amp, tells much about the true nature and sound-characteristics of a steel guitar. All such amps are built to favor certain characteristics in steels and disfavor others - the amp is a "musical instrument" in itself, so the coloring is already too high for serious testing/comparison of various steel guitars.

This coloring isn't enough to make RR's test completely useless. It is just that different people will continue to "read" different things into the "test-results" until everyone has forgotten all about the test - which to me is fine.

[Bo Legg]

For lack of a given motive for this test I will naturally assume I may have been manipulated no matter the results.
I believe that many who wittnes the test will feel that the test players subconscious preferences was a factor that may have tainted the outcome.
Rusty you're a great player but this is a no win situation. As my dad used to say "Never sign up for a but kickin?"

[Gary Cosden]

I love Steel Guitars. I also love Cars, Motorcycles, and technology in general. I read comparative reviews all the time. Some of them are quite insightful and some just plain suck out loud. You often learn as much about the reviewer as you do about what is being reviewed. I just don’t see the criticisms of this idea, although most of which seem well reasoned to me, as having any validity at all regarding the question of whether or not it should be done in the first place. I can’t for the life of me see how it would not be a good thing to have as many comparative reviews as possible from as many sources as possible and seeing how we have virtually none at the moment I personally welcome the idea. At the end of the day you must think for yourself and make up your own mind regarding any verdict in any review and this would be no exception. In a perfect world (my opinion only) we would have numerous regular reviews both written and videoed. This is not going to happen commercially in the PSG world given the size and nature of the market so when someone like Rusty volunteers I say go for it.

[Richard Sinkler]

Deleted

[Kenny Martin]

Ya killin me Gimble!!!!

We let me tell you guys one thing huhuhuhuh, never mind!

I'm with Paul on this one as for loving the aluminum necks with formica! Franklin or Emmons always! IMHO!

tHAT'S ALL I GOT TO SAY!

[ed packard]

The humidity, the temperature, the atmospheric pressure, whether you cleaned your ears, do you have a cold, and how large the signal from the pickup is will all affect what you hear...pretty subjective already and we have not even started on the players variables like picks and bars and PSG cultural preferences like Hawaiian, LA, Nashville/Bakersfield, or.....

A LOT of the sound/tone is in the players hands and heart = same player with different guitars/setups = different tone/sound. That also would be interesting.

So whatever you want to do/compare, define it, control it record it (video is nice), and document it.

Here are 32 PSG's tested in 2006 at Jim Palenscar's shop in Oceanside CA...with Frequency Spectrum Analyzer data for sustain etc. The 32 PSGs info starts several rows down.
http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/edpackard/

And here are the FSA results of one instrument, out of the pickup, and a vibration pickup on various parts of the body, to show vibration change/sustain etc as a function of energy loss in various parts of the frequency spectrum.
http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/ ... 3%20VIBES/

These shots can be duplicated, and the 32 PSG set does not include the bar and pick variable...one thumb pick at one fret (12) and open strings. They show the basic differences in the instruments re tone/sound/sustain.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Comparative reviews are fine, ....

If I understand the initial post correctly, Rusty did not say he was going review the different steel. He said he wants to videotape them so we can all draw our own conclusions.

[Richard Damron]

Ed Packard -

Gotta get nit-picky with your post on one point.

This is supposed to be a listening test. If my suggestion in one post above were followed, then all tests would be committed to a CD which would be made available to all for a nominal price. Then, in the privacy of their music rooms they could play the CD - one track at a time - through their favorite amplifier - over and over and over and over again while twiddling with the knobs. I rebel at the idea of multi-tasking one's brain with a video. 'Twould be better if one could simply concentrate on the sound and not be distracted with a mind-numbing video showing the same physical moves - and for what purpose?

No matter - the variables are still there giving rise to the old admonition that one man's trash is another's treasure. And, for certain, someone is certainly going to try to feed a line-level signal into the high gain input of the amplifier. Yuk!

There is too much uncertainty in this effort as conceived. I, personally, dismiss it as being hopelessly ineffective at achieving its' stated goal.

Respectfully,

Richard

[Georg Sørtun]

He said he wants to videotape them so we can all draw our own conclusions.

I thought that was the deal too...
...which gives us a chance to evaluate how good the recording equipment is, in addition to whatever will be used for editing/clipping/conversion and playback. Hope it's all something we can check up characteristics/technical data on, so it doesn't add too much confusion about what we really will be listening to.

[ed packard]

Richard...And that is what "might be learned" from doing it!

In the JP shop work, we could not even find two Sho Buds that looked alike via FSA...so tying the audio in Rusty's proposed tests to brand names could be quite misleading.

Considering the responses to the PICKS thread, the video might serve to illustrate some of that feedback, but only ala Rusty.

[Richard Damron]

Ed Packard -

You've supported the claim of some in the know that there are wide sonic differences to be found between guitars of the same brand - and constructed in the same week! This lends much credence to the notion that any comparison of instruments, whether clinical experiments or aural attempts, are doomed to come up short even though a smidgen of valuable information is to be found in the results.

You know that I tend to be an "egghead" thus I've poured over your references not once, but several times in an effort to fully comprehend the data contained therein. Most are not so inclined and, as a result, the valuable information to be gleaned from your experiments is lost upon minds not inclined to be inquiring. Herein lies a most glaring and frustrating question: - Why is it that most people not have the wherewithal to do the research, their "homework", before attempting to reinvent the wheel?

I view the end result of this abortive experiment to be a hodge-podge of disconnected opinions thus spawning another heated debate in the long line of such fruitless attempts to determine which guitar is "best". The proclaimed ability to discern the sonic characteristics of individual instruments will, I'm afraid, be long lost in the shuffle since the premise, itself, is highly flawed.

It appears that this thread is designed to be, in the main, self-serving and not much of anything else.

I'm mindful of that line in a pop tune of some 40+ years ago - "When will we ever learn?".

Bye the bye. When are you going to give us a report on that most intriquing pickup that you've concocted? Inquiring minds would love to know.

Respectfully,

Richard

[Rusty Rhoads]

Richard do you play steel guitar at all or are you just and owner of one ? the reason i ask you dont sound like a real musician looking forward to the out come of this experiment and video you have not had any positive input but i have seen a lot of whining on here i am looking very forward to do this in the end result everybody can make up there own mind what they liked or did not like about it!

It is just that simple nothing extra going on here other then a test of guitars against one another is this to hard for anyone to comprehend ?

am i making this to difficult ?