Son of "death to guitar players"- Guys who use jaz

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Dave, did you carefully read the 4 examples of guy I say are doing it wrong? I’ll repost them so you can take another look.

1- The guy who is so in love with jazz chords he throws them into EVERYTHING (I.E. Honky Tonk Woman.)
2- The guy who has never played or even heard country music who takes the attitude “ I’m gonna show these ignorant hillbillies with their stupid little songs what real music sounds like.”
3- The guy who is so proud of himself for having leaned these chords that he wants to show off how sophisticated he thinks he is by throwing them in indiscriminately.
4- The guy who is perhaps not used to playing with another chord instrument who throws them in without consulting or agreeing with the other musicians in the band, resulting in one guy playing an altered chord against another playing the straight one.

I think people see this as a freedom issue. But we are not a truly 100% free society. We have laws that restrict our freedom from doing a lot of things from running red lights to committing murder. We have these laws so that we can function as a society.

Bands have to have some ground rules too. You can’t have one member deciding he doesn’t like a particular song and play a different one from the rest of the band.

If a band as a whole decides to use jazz chords in a country song, that becomes a matter of personal taste, and yes, they have the right to do that. But if one member decided to use them while the rest of the band is playing simple triadic chords, and the result is dissonance and chaos, I still say that’s wrong.

A major 7th played against a major can sound good if the M7 is in the uppermost register and the major chord is in the lower one. But this has to be agreed upon by all the musicians involved in order to avoid chaos.

Here’s a little experiment you all can try. The next time you get together with another musician, try playing the 2 of them in the same register and listen to what they sound like. I think that once you all hear how this sounds, you’ll agree that it is something that generally speaking, should not be done. (There may be times when it can be done for effect.)

Freedom to play what whatever you want comes the responsibility to play in harmony with the rest of the band.

[Dave Mudgett]

Mike, I read it - and I even said that, according to my personal tastes, I agree with your preferences. But I'll tell you right now that I care whether or not I hurt someone with my words, regardless of how "right" I think I am. I know people who actually like music made in the way you mention, and I just don't see any reason to rattle their cages unless I'm playing with them. But even then, I think a little diplomacy can go a long way.

The other thing is the inevitable realization that we cannot control other people. So I'm also not talking about "freedom". Of course, anybody is "free" to play anything they want. The line I argue is for less "judgment" about what other people do and more focus on "playing" what I do. That's all.

Naturally, anybody who wants to judge the work of others is "free" to do that. I suppose there's a place for it, but I think it is often not done well. Let's just say I think the marginal utility of artistic creation is a helluvalot larger than the marginal utility of artistic criticism.

So to me, the main issue is that sometimes it's hard to find people who see things in a musically compatible way. I find that open minds and a bit of flexibility on all sides is more useful than any absolute pronouncements about what's 'right' or 'wrong'. I think it's largely a practical issue.

[David Mason]

Plz don't miss the money quote from the whole thread:

playing some inappropriate gold Lexus- white wine-spritzer lick

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

[quote="Dave Mudgett" we cannot control other people. [/quote]

Dave, A bandleader SHOULD be able to control what goes on in his or her band. He or she should be able to say how the music is supposed to sound, and if a player decides to play jazz chords while the other band members do not, (or, referring to my previous thread, steps on the other musicians and hogs all the rides and fills,) the band leader has the right to demand that the player either get in line or leave the band.

[Twayn Williams]

If you hire a jazz player for your country gig you shouldn't be surprised when they play jazz on your county songs :shrug: If you hire a bad jazz player, your gonna get bad jazz on your country. (You got jazz on my country! No, you got country on my jazz!)

As for playing a M7 chord in the same register as another instrument playing a straight triad, it all depends on how you approach it. I just did the experiment with my looper, first laying down a very straight cowboy chord C-F-G progression and then overdubbed CM7-FM7-G7 in various registers and it all worked just fine. It just depends on how you approach it.

Rhythm is far more important than chord voicing IMHO.

[Ben Jones]

No problem for this guitar player. all i know are power chords and the drop D tuned one finger chord version of the power chord. There was a period of about 10 years of playing metal/doom gigs every weekend (weeknight gigs are for chumps) where I swear I didnt play a chord with more than two notes in it once in the entire decade.

I dislike jazz quite a bit. The only guys I can relate to are coltrane and miles. Coltrane is the bestest. I really like the CONCEPT of free jazz, but cant listen to the real world manifestation of it.

Now I'll listen to someone like Volkaert and I appreciate when he throws in a few for contrast but still wish he'd go a little easier on em. Probably alot of you had exposure to the good stuff when you were coming up. For me it was the 80's which was a horrible time for "jazz" in my humble and admittedly ignorant opinion. My impression of jazz at that time was Kenny G, Doc Severnson, Fusion stuff , elevator music...barf. Its scars me to this day. Coltrane is about the begining and end for me. Bird is pretty heavy too.

[Dave Mudgett]

A bandleader SHOULD be able to control what goes on in his or her band.

This is one model of a band - authoritarian bandleader tells everybody else what to do or hit the road, Jack. It is not the only model.

Not everybody works in the 'singer/bandleader' vs. 'sidemen' model. I refer to Bob Carlucci's post on this thread - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... t=#1633682 - many bands work on a collaborative model. This is completely situational.

It is my opinion that there's no way to insist on any specific way to handle this kind of thing, it's governed strictly by personal tastes, musical and power relationships, and so on. Different people and groups of people are going to do what they want. Other people can like it, dislike it, judge it, not judge it, participate with it, not participate with it, whatever.

Now I'll listen to someone like Volkaert and I appreciate when he throws in a few for contrast but still wish he'd go a little easier on em. Probably alot of you had exposure to the good stuff when you were coming up.

Hey, Ben - it's OK to have preferences. Some people like more altered chords in country, some like less, it's fine. I happen to Love Redd's playing - I don't think he remotely overdoes this, but that's just my tastes.

Rhythm is far more important than chord voicing IMHO.

For rhythm guitar playing, I completely agree. There are lots of good note choices, but emphasis is critical.

Hey, Mike - this is really just an armchair discussion with opinions flying around. These are just mine, at least for right now.

[Brint Hannay]

Ben--You can't like Trane, Miles, and Bird and say you dislike jazz!!

What you dislike is bad jazz!

[Ben Jones]

David M., I love Redd's playing to the point of near worship. He is the master of the telecaster! Just occasionally tho there'll be a run of jazz chords thats so long I start to get itchy. I guess I prefer them to be used in a passing manner . but Redd is the man. love him.

I have a hard time listening to stuff like Redneck Jazz explosion. I respect the skill, but the ping pong effect of all those bouncing jazzy chords connected into phrases makes it a challenging listen for me. Its not an album I put on often consequently.


Brint , yeah "bad jazz", agreed. Most of the time when people say they dont like country music, I know they mean they dont like the BAD country music they've heard on the radio or seen on tv, and that thats about all they've heard or been exposed to.

Im probably somewhat guilty of the same when it comes to jazz. Hearing coltrane for the first time was like a bomb going off in my soul for me.

[Earnest Bovine]

If it sounds bad, it is bad. (no matter what Mark Twain said)

[Franklin]

This topic reminds me of a few football players ignoring the called play and winging it on their own. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.....A great player respects his teammates and the coaches call.

I think Mike is saying respect the chart......Arrangements are always subjective. No matter how strange the arrangements are, every band sounds best when everyone plays the same chart. IMO, that is the "only" way a gigging band should play......Improvising chord substitutions in Country music can lead to a cluttered mess.

Paul

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Thank you Paul and Doug. You both distilled the essence of what I am trying to say.

[John Steele (deceased)]

Suggested listening while reading this thread:
Curtis Potter singing "A Thing Called Sadness".

- John

[John Billings]

I always did "double-duty" on stage. And I demanded, in a nice way, that the rest of the band play very, very basic chords during my solos. Sometimes I wanted to strangle the keyboard player though!
My 6-string solos are laden with double stop harmonies, and use all sorts of partial chords. If the band (keyboard jerk) was gettin' too fancy, it would sound like "merde!" There's all kinds of wonderful Gattony licks you can play in say, key of E up at the 12th fret, and the use of A6th and A9th up there for really fast double-stop harmonies is wonderful. Unless the band (keyboard dork) starts gettin' fancy!
I just grabbed my guitar and played "Honky Tonk Women" with Major 7ths. Made me uncomfortable! Think I'll skip dinner tonight, I feel woozy!

[Roual Ranes]

Why are they called "Jazz Chords"? I thought they were just chords. I use a 13th on E9th all the time and most people do.

[David Mason]

I end up listening entirely to individual people, I can't find any "genre" which contains nothing but diamonds and butterflies.

However, my experience has been that bad jazz is usually just really boring, while bad rock and roll is disgusting and bad country can be truly hideous.

SO, you can actually upgrade bad country by adding bad jazz chords - lemme know how that goes, there's too much great music for me to worry about the bottom-dwelling stuff too much.

[Barry Blackwood]

There was a period of about 10 years of playing metal/doom gigs every weekend (weeknight gigs are for chumps) where I swear I didnt play a chord with more than two notes in it once in the entire decade.

Ben, does it qualify as a chord if it only has two notes in it?

Aside from that, genre-mixing onstage doesn't work for me in most cases. I have never figured out who the "guilty party" is trying to impress with it, but they obviously aren't concerned with being on the same page as the rest of the band.

[Chip Fossa]

I'm pretty sure 1 tone is called a NOTE. 2 tones are an INTERVAL; and 3 or more tones are a CHORD.

Splitting hairs. But, that's what we do well.

[John Billings]

Chip, intervals yes, but I usually think of them as partials. I figure the rest of the band, and fur shure the bass player, is filling in the missing notes needed to make a chord. I take them into consideration while I'm playing. If I'm using a partial A6th in a lick, and the band (keyboard dolt) plays an A7th, in the same octave,,,,,,

[Bo Legg]

I thought I'd let this go awhile before I shut the thing down with the only logical answer to this dilemma.
There are only three chords in any song.
The right one, the wrong one and the left one if you're playing stereo.

[Tracy Sheehan]

I plead guilty to jazzing up country on rock and some what was called pop back then songs but it was a way to survive.(No pun intended.) Back in the 50s thur most of the 70s i worked the road in night clubs and casinos in parts of the country where country didn't sell. When playing in the parts of country where country was popular we kept it 3 chords if thats what the song called for.
I even bought a leslie to get away from the steel sound where steel wasn't popular.Also (gasp) used, a fuzz on rock and some pop to get a sax sound.
Now to the draw back to this, after doing this for years i had trouble playing weekends here as i over played with out realizing i was doing it.

As a good friend of mine who played for many Nashville artists before going on the circuit i had been on would say when called down for over playing would reply,sorry but where i played you either picked it or packed it. He said this in fun but was true.
A steel players sense of humor that got one in dutch many times. I know. Tracy

[Marc Friedland]

Mike –

G L O R I A
I just played it using all Major 7th chords
Then I laughed for about a minute afterwards, if was actually quite pretty, but of course nothing like the attitude of the original song. I feel “attitude” is probably the most important element in some segments of rock & pop music.
Generally speaking, I think of and hear Major 7th chords as being “pretty” or “emotional”
And agree with you that they don’t belong in songs like HTW because they don’t match the attitude of the song.

Back to GLORIA –
I remember many years ago hear it being played by some people using an Amaj7.
It was not intentional though, they were making a mistake.
I’m talking about the high Chord Solo section – playing only the 3 or 4 high strings, they would play the high E on the 12th fret correct, D on the 10th fret correct, but on the 9th fret they played C#m instead of A, probably because it sort of sounded close & they didn’t know how to form the A chord correctly there, or be able to switch between it quick enough.
So with them playing the C#m while the bass and other guitar was playing A, this sort of created an Amaj7.

Marc
www.PedalSteelGuitarMusic.com

[Dave Mudgett]

The 1-5 interval played together is commonly called a power chord, since it dispenses with that sometimes annoying 3rd interval that is often left ambiguous in blues and rock, and often clashes if you make a decision about which it should be (major or minor 3rd).

Two notes are also sometimes called double-stops.

I personally agree with almost every argument here against throwing in random tones that clutter things up. I think organized arrangements are great, and if there is one and everybody agrees to it, it should be stuck to. John B. - yes, yes, yes - I see some keyboard players do this sometimes. I view keyboard as the ultimate chordal instrument, and that power can slice both ways if not controlled. But I see some players of any chordal instrument do this sometimes. I don't like it either.

But when it gets down to it, I've seen bands who come up with different agreements about how to handle this kind of stuff, and I don't think it's up to me to tell them what they should do. If I don't like it, I don't listen, very simple.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Marc, you should have been at the Phoenix show a few years ago when I did the song, and I'd sing the letters and about a dozen other steel players (forever to be remembered as "The Mike-ettes") who were on stage with me sang the name out.

It was fun the first time, but it got old. I doubt that I'll do that again, but one never knows. (I did NOT throw in any Major 7 chords.)

[John Billings]

An interesting old rock song with Maj7ths in the bridge is "Little Red Book" by the band Love. They used the mellow bridge as a contrast to the violence of the verses. Great song!