Son of "death to guitar players"- Guys who use jaz

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 5 Jul 2010 3:23 pm

Don't get me wrong, I LIKE jazz chords, when used appropriately. But a lot of country and rock tunes require simple chords and the big chords simple screw them up. There's a place for extended harmonies, and a place where they don't belong.

I once heard a guy play "Honky Tonk Woman" with jazz chords. All I can say is WRONG!

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 5 Jul 2010 3:44 pm

It can all be traced back to when they put all those minors in "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry". Nothing infuriated Don Helms more at a steel show.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 5 Jul 2010 4:32 pm

You mean like this? (Steelers QB Terry Bradshaw singing I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfw8acB7TVk

Or this? (Elvis doing the same)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EggG5DjCRU

Or maybe this pair by Al Green:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuNN7hFjlKQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPQ-l0gY_8o

People reharmonize or otherwise reinterpret songs. Willie has done it for old jazz standards many times - some jazz hardliners I know don't like it. Ray did it for old country songs, I imagine some country hardliners don't like it. But this kind of cross-pollination brings great songs to new people who wouldn't have been open to them exactly as originally performed.

Different strokes. Whether or not someone likes it and thinks it's in good taste is strictly a matter of taste. No matter what you do, some are gonna hate it, and others are gonna think it's the best thing since sliced bread. My opinion.

Now - maj7 in Honky Tonk Woman - that's goin' too far.

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 5 Jul 2010 5:27 pm

I gotta say I agree with you on this one. Gets back to something a wise man once said, "just because you CAN, doesn't always mean you SHOULD."

A drummer I used to work with a lot (and I love his drumming btw), used to do paradiddles for train beats. Ok, yeah, technically it works, but it don't feel right.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 5 Jul 2010 5:43 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote:Maj7 in Honky Tonk Woman - that's goin' too far.

That's the kind of thing I'm referring to. And it won't work on A way To Survive of Honky Tonk Angels either.

And (very important) if the band decides as a whole to incorporate those kinds of chords in a song, that's one thing, but for one guy to use them when the others don't is something else. A major 7 chord might sound good by itself, but not when another instrument is playing the major chord in the same register without the 7th.

Can you picture one player playing the minor 4 chord on the word TRAIN in I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry while everybody else in the band stays on the major chord?

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 5 Jul 2010 5:46 pm

News flash to folks groups a la Peter, Paul and Mary: There are no minors in "Blowing in the Wind"...and while you're at it, lay off the machine gun vibrato!! Had to get that off my chest.

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 5 Jul 2010 5:47 pm

Although, Lester played a 6 major chord on "Foggy Mtn. Breakdown," while everybody else played a 6 minor, and that worked........

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Jul 2010 8:03 pm

Not to ruffle the feathers of my friends, but I come down on the side of freedom to reinterpret a song as seen fit by an excellent musician.

Pete Seeger said that a musician should be very lenient with another's playing, and very critical of his own. I kinda concur with Pete.

Steve Earle once said "I wish I was as sure about anything as Bill Monroe is about everything."

I agree with that, also.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 5 Jul 2010 8:54 pm

I like to play jazz chord substitutions sometimes because I'm bored out of my mind after playing the same song a thousand times and it's fun to see if the bass player goes with me. And I need to play them every once in a while so I won't forget them. They might not fit, but if it's not a critical gig, who really cares?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 5 Jul 2010 9:00 pm

Cal Sharp wrote:I like to play jazz chord substitutions sometimes because I'm bored out of my mind after playing the same song a thousand times and it's fun to see if the bass player goes with me.

Me too. In fact, I have mapped out all of the possibilities of how the various bass players I work with will respond to the jazz chords. It can be described by a fairly trivial polynomial function and depending upon which way they respond, I'm prepared with my next harmonic move. One can never have too much predictability in music.

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 5 Jul 2010 9:01 pm

I knew you were gonna say that Jim.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 5 Jul 2010 9:22 pm

Yeah, well, it's gonna take a while to get it out of my system...

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 5 Jul 2010 9:49 pm

I knew you were gonna say that too Jim....and if you hadn't, I woulda.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 6 Jul 2010 12:29 am

Herb Steiner wrote:
Pete Seeger said that a musician should be very lenient with another's playing,...

Pete Seeger is a very wise man, but I can't be lenient with the guy who played Honky Tonk Woman with major 7th chords. The guy emasculated the song and turned it into elevator music.

Some things lend themselves to that kind of harmonic experimentation, and some don't. A real musician knows the difference.

Bob Simons · Post by **Bob Simons** » 6 Jul 2010 4:14 am

CAl wrote: "They might not fit, but if it's not a critical gig, who really cares?"

Remind me never to hire you! [/quote]

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 6 Jul 2010 4:35 am

Mike...expand your mind

in a new direction..I know you can do it, I see where it's been..

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 6 Jul 2010 4:43 am

"Honky Tonk Woman" with major 7 chords. That's comedy, not interpretation.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 6 Jul 2010 5:48 am

Chris LeDrew wrote:"Honky Tonk Woman" with major 7 chords. That's comedy, not interpretation.

But the guy was serious. He thought he was improving the song.

David and Cal and everybody else who disagrees with me, there's a real simple way to get me to change my mind. Play Honky Tonk Woman or Good Hearted Woman, or Johnny Be Good or my theme song, G-L-O-R-I-A with major 7 and other jazz chords, and retain the original feeling of the tunes.

Do that, and make it sound right, and I'll concede I am wrong about this.

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 6 Jul 2010 6:00 am

Hummm, first of all Major 7 s & I don't hear in the songs you've listed, for "me" i hear 9ths & some others, besides, if we all thought the same, we would sound the same!

I already hear guy's posting songs on youtube playing there songs just like "someone" else recorded it, whats the point?? now your living in someone else mind musically.I say make it your own, most might disagree with me, but this is "MY" take on it...so flame away!!!..

And remember Mike, this is "your" option ...we all see and hear differently...
One mans trash is an others Treasures. as they say!!

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 6 Jul 2010 6:21 am

Then there's this -- click here

I thought it was pretty conservative, but is that too far out? (wouldn't want to offend anyone) How do you know where SOMEONE ELSE will draw the line? (and do you really care?) I thought this was about personal self-expression.

Whose rule is it that a new arrangement has to be true to the original? Sounds like all of Charlie Parker's takes on 'Rhythm changes' (the dozens of tunes based on 'I've Got Rhythm')would be unacceptable, just as one example.

Mike, I'm surprised you like Susan Alcorn's music so well.

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 6 Jul 2010 6:33 am

Nice job Larry...

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 6 Jul 2010 6:37 am

OK, let me get serious for a moment. I feel that certain songs have a certain indescribable character and feeling, and that part of that is their harmonic simplicity. Honky Tonk Woman is a perfect example. It may be possible to add sophisticated harmonies to these songs, but when you do, you change that feeling and lose that character.

You may come up with something that's very good, but it won't be the same.

The best example of this is the 2 different chord progressions of I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry. It's not that the chords used by Elvis and some others are "bad" or "wrong' but that they make the song feel different from the way it feels when sung with just the 3 chords the way Hank wrote it.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 6 Jul 2010 6:45 am

Larry Bell wrote:
Mike, I'm surprised you like Susan Alcorn's music so well.

Larry, Susan is creating something entirely new. She isn't altering something traditional.

But remember, I said at the very beginning of this thread that I like jazz chords when used appropriately. My complaint is when guys throw them in arbitrarily, and without coordinating them with the other band members so one guy is playing a major chord while another is playing a major 7th, or when using them on songs where they don't belong.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 6 Jul 2010 7:14 am

Another very wise guy said something to the effect that you should learn the lyrics of a song, and your backing should reflect the intent of the song.

I met a gin soaked, bar-room queen in Memphis,
She tried to take me upstairs for a ride.
She had to heave me right across her shoulder
'Cause I just can't seem to drink you off my mind.

Cmaj7... no, Gmaj7... no, Abmb5!

I laid a divorcee in New York City,
I had to put up some kind of a fight.
The lady then she covered me with roses,
She blew my nose and then she blew my mind.

Eb/G... Abmb5#9! Frick, "art" is a demanding mistress...

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 6 Jul 2010 7:45 am

That's a problem I have with censorship in general (and that IS what we are talking about when we say 'you should do this or shouldn't do that' re: a creative endeavor). Everyone has a different opinion on when or how to apply it.

I think musicians have the right to play and record and sell ANYTHING THEY WANT TO MARKET. And, in turn, I have the right not to like it or buy it.