Steel Discrimination

[Jerry Overstreet]

The only times I have ever been told I was too loud was by so called "sound engineers". Generally, I'm asked to turn up on stage by the bandmembers. These times were always in an opening show before well-known name acts. Huge outdoor events for the most part.

Can't blame it on volume pedals, cause the fiddle player used one too. I think they just don't like steel guitar, but they will always put a piano/keyboard high in the mix and monitors to dink in your ear all night. I guess we're just eye candy.

Once, they asked if I could turn down a little so they had more control on the board. I said, "are you telling me that I'm louder than these 2 r&r guitar players on the other side?" I didn't. Another time, I had one of the sound guys ask "which songs will you be playing on?" I told him "all of them". Friends and musician acquaintances told me "Well, you looked good at least, couldn't hardly hear you though".

Lately, I just set the volume on my amp so I and the band can hear and let the guy out front do whatever he wants. Unless they are someone who knows us and the band and understands steel, he's probably going to pull you off the board anyway, so at least this way, it'll sound good to us where we are.

I'm a little surprised to hear that a place like BB's would slight the steel. I've never been there, but I always imagined a great Texas traditional sound mix where people could two-step, etc.

This appears to be a constantly growing problem with these live deals. We need band leaders, managers etc. to stick up for us and help us to get an equal share of the mix.

[Craig A Davidson]

I just caught this thread and what I do is put my amp in front and to the side of my guitar lean it back and point it at me. I can hear, the band can hear, and the sound man can do what he wants. It also eliminates the beaming effect of other mics.

[Rick Campbell]

Flame Suit On and Activated.

When you play the clubs that cater to new country music, you can expect this. Why? Because steel guitar is not important to them. I'd bet that no one in the audience is complaining to the soundman about not hearing the steel. You can make all the music the line dancers want with drums, bass, and distorted guitar. If steel was important to them, they'd complain. As the rock, pop, brand of country grows in popularity, it's going to get worse.

I don't hear this problem at the ET Midnight Jamboree. I believe if the new country records didn't even have steel on them, it would not have any great effect on the record sales. Which brings me back to the fundamental issue. The real traditional country music that featured a lot of steel guitar is dying and the importance of steel guitar is dying with it. This is why steel shows are vital to steel players and steel fans. If you tried to take a steel show song set to a club, they'd run you off, because that's not what they want to hear. I'm just thankful that there is some real steel music around even though you have to hunt to find it, because it's not in your face, but in a niche category.

My observations and opinion. Maybe I'm all wrong. I hope I am, and the music industry proves it. That way we'll have the music that we love back.

[Herby Wallace]

Well Mickey,

I have been posting comments too much here lately on the Forum, but all I can say is that I could write a book about bad sound men I have worked with. I won't get into names or places, but about 80% of the places I play, the sound is terrible and not what it should be. By the way, this includes steel guitar shows and concerts. It's just a shame that there is so much good music being played by steel players that never gets heard out front as it should be. To be honest, I actually gave up on most so called sound men a few years ago, as I can't do anything about it anyway.

Herby Wallace

P.S. Good luck Mickey, but believe me, it is a no win situation.

[Donny Hinson]

It is amazing how many "small bands" are able to mix themselves from the stage...

We did it for so long, it became second nature. Then came the day when the little bands saw big groups playing in auditoriums and coliseums, and they just knew the only difference between "famous" and "unknown" was a semi-trailer full of PA system. Yup, they had to have that sound man! Problem was, there's a fundamental difference between playing to a 150 people and playing to 15,000 people. Doesn't matter, though. The small bands in the small venues pile huge speakers in the corner like there's no tomorrow, and then they hook up the 72-channel board (complete with 13 mikes on the drummer), and proceed to fire up all four 1,000 watt amps.

In the time it takes the average "small band" today to set up their sound system and get all the levels incorrect, we would have unloaded, set up, changed outfits, tuned up, had a few drinks, and lined up some "post music" entertainment.

[Larry Hamilton]

Went to hear Ray Price at a new high dollar auditorium. Yep, you guessed it. Sound that sucked. With Jim Loesberg on steel I was excited until they started. Very little steel in the mix. Some local outfit doing the sound I think, though I didn't recognize the name. Jim warned me before hand he wasn't allowed to play loud but the soundman REALLY put the whammy on him.

[Danny Hullihen]

Been there, done that too. When I play the larger venues, I usually ask the sound engineer to run my equipment through a compressor/limiter, which will help give him control over me running too loud in the mix, and/or "overdriving" as they claim. If you can get them to do that, you'll at least have a fair chance of still being heard in the total mix. This is not rocket science, it's more of a matter of finding someone running the sound gear that has at least a clue of what you're talking about, and sadly, many don't.

[Bill Myrick]

I have not seen any positive posts about sound men so I'll offer this quick one : Maybe three years ago my wife and I attended a Branson show called "The Grand Ladies of Country Music" and was held at The God & Country Theater on the strip.
Our good friend, Steve Matlock was the steeler and super pickers Barry Pile and Wade Landry was in the band along with Chuck Landry on drums.
The music was fabulous and Steve, Barry and Wade were doing lots of three part stuff but---the steel was too low in the mix to blend well and his rides were also too low.
We talked with Steve at break and he knew the sound man well and when he came down Steve got him to come over and introduced me and we talked about it. Steve told him , Bill is a steel player too etc etc and the sound man said "well we want it to be right", so the second half he watched me setting down in the crowd and would bring the steel up until I signaled him ok.
After the show, he came and thanked me and said it really did make a big differance. Need more like him maybe ?

[Dick Wood]

The only positive thing I can say regarding soundmen is that we don't use them most of the time.

[Rick Campbell]

Have you ever, ever, ever, heard a non-steel player, or family member, in the audience complain about the steel not being loud enough? I've been doing this a long time and the only complaint I've ever heard is about the vocals. "Can't hear what they're saying, the music is too loud"

[Gene Jones]

[quote-Rick Campbell]Have you ever, ever, ever, heard a non-steel player, or family member, in the audience complain about the steel not being loud enough[quote]

Unfortunately Rick, your question is true to reality. During my career, my wife's primary complaint has always been that when sitting at the "wife/girl-friend band table", everyone at the table always listens in awe while the vocalist/star is at the mic, but, when the steel-player or any other instrumentalist takes a ride, everyone uses that time to "gossip and small-talk", and no one listens.

The fact is, that if your name isn't on the bus, you are just a hired employee who might as well be sweeping the floor after all the important people have left the area.

[Wayne Franco]

The situation a steel player would probably be put in if after you died, your when down instead of up.This may be augmented a little to include other gig scenerios we've all been in. You would be forced to play 24 hours a day where you can't hear yourself enough to know if you're even playing in the right key. (no not told you what key in the first place), can't hear the other lead players on the other side of the stage so you have no idea when you can play, when not to, augment or add to whats going on. Some times there is a bass player and drummer in between as a wall of noise.where the drummer doesn't always accent the 1st and 3 beat thinking its cool to accent odd time. The bass player it constantly putting little "outbursts" of his fancy finger work that has nothing to do with chords or steady timing of the song.I tell ya..I'd rather have a couple gulps of bleach or have 3 teeth extracted. Its pure hell.
Many sound men think they can mix a band while they're playing. May be great for the full time sound guy that is as familiar with the songs as the players. Most of the time in the best situation you never hear the first bar of so of the solo to nothing at all. It can be a real mess.

[W. C. Edgar]

I have about the same ammount of respect for sound men that I have for keyboard players, banjo players and harmonica owners not in that order. What really pisses me off on a big show is when you find a soundman (jack of all knobs) that runs the sliders on you. Granted he's never heard any of your music but yet when he thinks you're taking a ride he will run the channel slider and boost you up. I've told many of them, set all my levels flat, bring the slider up to where you can hear me and don't touch the damn thing till it's over. Thats why we have a tool called a "Volume Pedal" you jerk. Sad thing is that once the sound leaves your amp some loser that wouldn't know a good steel guitar tone if it bit em in the ass has control of all the FOH. Only thing worse is having a former steel player running the mix and then he thinks he's running sound at the steel cornvention and it's twice as loud as anything else.
WC Edgar

www.wcedgar.com

www.myspace.com/wcedgar

[John Steele (deceased)]

Well, I'm glad y'all aren't bitter about it anyway.

- John

[Tracy Sheehan]

Sound men should only be allowed to play a banjo.That would pertty well do away with them i would think.
BTW.Bet a sound man would call a bass drum a kick drum.lol

[Shane Glover]

Only thing worse is having a former steel player running the mix and then he thinks he's running sound at the steel cornvention and it's twice as loud as anything else

Now that's funny I don't care who ya are !!

[Barry Blackwood]

The fact is, that if your name isn't on the bus, you are just a hired employee who might as well be sweeping the floor after all the important people have left the area.

Well said, Gene. Like you, I have been down that road before.

[Joseph Barcus]

90% of the people & soundmen of course out there does not know that a pedal steel guitar is a lead instrument. showed up one time for a show one sunday afternoon and the lead man didnt show up they were all running around saying what are we going to do we have nobody to play lead. just makes you shake your head and and look for their sign they left laying somewhere in the building.

[Tracy Sheehan]

Another reason not to waste money now days hiring a sound man.Just turn the guitars and fuzz tones wide open,amp the drums and have him play with bass ball bats instead of drum sticks and you are playing todays what ever.

[LJ Eiffert]

So,this is why I can't hear the Electric AssTray player in the mix on a good cut song.That elegant sound man keeps all the emotions to himself.Now I feel high-strung. Leo J.Eiffert,Jr. & PIGEONS Band.

[John Steele (deceased)]

So, just to summarize:

Everyone's stupid, except me.
- Homer Simpson

[Danny Hullihen]

The fact is, that if your name isn't on the bus, you are just a hired employee who might as well be sweeping the floor after all the important people have left the area.

You think maybe this just might be enough to at least keep me from sweeping the floor?

[Barry Blackwood]

So,this is why I can't hear the Electric AssTray player in the mix on a good cut song.

[Chris Walke]

I just caught this thread and what I do is put my amp in front and to the side of my guitar lean it back and point it at me. I can hear, the band can hear, and the sound man can do what he wants. It also eliminates the beaming effect of other mics.

This is what I do as well, for both steel and lead guitar. I've found the only thing I can be concerned about is the stage sound, so I do my best to make it work for me & the band & whoever's running monitors. As far as FOH goes, I can't do anything about that. That's the FOH mixer's world. I give the best I can give at the moment, what the soundman does with it is his problem.

[Dave Mudgett]

So, just to summarize:

Everyone's stupid, except me.
- Homer Simpson

Ha, that's funny.

Craig A Davidson wrote:
I just caught this thread and what I do is put my amp in front and to the side of my guitar lean it back and point it at me. I can hear, the band can hear, and the sound man can do what he wants. It also eliminates the beaming effect of other mics.

This is what I do as well, for both steel and lead guitar. I've found the only thing I can be concerned about is the stage sound, so I do my best to make it work for me & the band & whoever's running monitors. As far as FOH goes, I can't do anything about that. That's the FOH mixer's world. I give the best I can give at the moment, what the soundman does with it is his problem.

I also do this sometimes - sometimes it's the only way I can give the FOH mixer something to work with and still hear myself.

Up to a point, I agree that "what the sound (person) does with it is his (or her) problem." But I also understand some of the frustration when a band gets mixed in a way that presents them radically differently than their idea of what they're supposed to sound like. I realize there are often technical issues with sound production, and it's important to work with sound people. But bands I'm in do not generally want random, self-appointed "producers" deliberately messing around with "our sound". To me, the goal should be "sound reinforcement" of a band's sound, not a production decision on the band.

What I sometimes hear from such sound people is, "This is what we (meaning the club) want bands to sound like." What I say is, "We have our sound, this is what we want to sound like. We are presenting a show to people, and anything that happens will be attributed to us. We want basic control of that." Trying to impose a modern/heavy rock sound mentality on roots styles like trad country, bluegrass, alt-country, blues, folk, and so on, is a mistake. I want to avoid playing places that insist on a radically different sound presentation than what fits what we do.