Steel Discrimination

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 16 Aug 2009 5:43 am

Well, ive read posts in here about soundmen discriminating against steel players but until last night...I had never really seen it. We played Billy Bobs in Fort Worth last night. We played the center stage....Get this picture...BBs is as big as 2 Super Walmarts. The main stage is 100 yards behind the center stage, and in front of me, I probably would have a stiff 5 iron to the front door. Add to that, there are no less than 1000 screaming little girls between the stage and the front door...( I just added that for the image!!)
Im playing my main rig...2 Furlong Spilts, My Mullen Rack, and my G2...
For the first 5 songs, the band sounds like heaven...The stage mix is perfect, everyone can hear, and everyone is having a great set...Now the soundman comes up to me on the 6th song
They have taken the steel OUT of the mix completely, becuase I am drowning out the vocals and the music....Now we are talking a WALL of JBL house sound equipment, and my little 2/12 cabinets are drowning everything?????/I dont think so....One of my friends in the audience said my steel sounded PERFECT...He could hear EVERYTHING I played....Which would equate to about maybe 10% of any given song..5 minutes later, after adjusting to what the soundman wanted, I could hear NOTHING on the stage...I couldnt even tell if my steel was still in tune..I couldnt hear what key I was in....And the band just looked at me sitting there looking disgusted for the rest of the 1st set.
Ive been playing music since I was 14...Count'em...thats 37 years. And I have a pretty good idea of what is good and bad, right and wrong. To make matters worse...I heard several negative comments about other local players that are good friends of mine here in Dallas...And It was all the same...if you can HEAR the steel...Its too LOUD.
I feel violated.....

John Gould · Post by **John Gould** » 16 Aug 2009 6:05 am

Hey Mickey,
I have to say that I'm not surprised at this. The sound man of today has no idea of how to mix COUNTRY music. They don't understand that the steel is as important as the vocal. It should be as out front when your playing fills. I've been to several shows where all you hear is the Drums, Bass and Vocal everything else was just a wash of guitar sound. Even if there is a fiddle player it's hidden in wash of noise.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 16 Aug 2009 6:05 am

Mickey, It is sad and annoying how one ignorant person can spoil everything. Please don't take it so hard (and be prepared the next time).

Richard Damron · Post by **Richard Damron** » 16 Aug 2009 6:11 am

Mickey -

Seems like there has been several threads and posts here on the Forum concerning the typical situation that you describe. Seems to be an integral part of the effort to ostracize the PSG from all of music. I have no first hand knowledge of such goings-on so I'll refrain from any sort of rant. I can easily feel your frustration and can only applaud the efforts of those, like yourself, who play professionally in what appears to be an atmosphere of adversity. Hang in there, good buddy - there are those, like myself, who thoroughly enjoy the PSG and count on folks like yourself to present the instrument as best that you can.

Respectfully,

Richard

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 16 Aug 2009 7:10 am

Mick,
Sound men aren't always working with a full deck!!I have felt your pain!!!.

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 16 Aug 2009 7:20 am

Hey Mickey, you should see if you could hire David to be your "Sound Enforcer". We are booked into Billy Bob's the 26th of September. I hope I don't have to deal with this guy. David, you busy that night?

Jack Musgrave · Post by **Jack Musgrave** » 16 Aug 2009 7:24 am

I have experieced this a few times myself. seems like every other instrument can play as loud as they want, but when you bring the steel up to their level it's too loud. IMHO what has happened is that the drums and 5 string bass guitars have became so dominant out front in the mix that when a steel guitar plays up to their level, it becomes almost piercing to the ear, causing us to look like the bad guy. only solution that I see when playing this way is maybe to use in-ear monitors adjusted to your taste or put your speakers up in the air, right next to you ears. the days of country bass guitars and light touch drummers are over for now. distorted guitars, well thats a whole different subject. don't get me wrong , I like a lot of the new stuff, and I like some classic rock and roll, but playing live with a sound person unfamiliar with the dynamics and range of a steel guitar is just plain scary

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 16 Aug 2009 7:29 am

Randy,
Great to hear from you

, I think I would be a GREAT" Sound Enforcer" and would enjoy the job!!! BUT, will be Ca at that time,

other wise would come out and see ya!!...

..

Jim Walker · Post by **Jim Walker** » 16 Aug 2009 7:42 am

Mickey, I think the majority of us have been violated in the same manner. Luckily, I've got the Sound Engineers in my area perfectly trained now and it didn't take long at all. It's really amazing how much love you can get from a sound crew when you show up to load in with a couple big sacks from Burger King!

JW

Jim Walker · Post by **Jim Walker** » 16 Aug 2009 8:08 am

Steel DADDY! You would be a great Sound Enforcer! I imagine you would use the same methods you use as the Band Enforcer. It only took one or two gigs for you to straighten out Me, Mike and Donny. Ahh the good ol' days! LOL

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 16 Aug 2009 8:14 am

Son,
I did what had to be done!!! Now your all better for it

Larry Weaver · Post by **Larry Weaver** » 16 Aug 2009 8:21 am

I find it incredibly odd and ironic that in alt-county, rock bands and venues that feature this genre, the sound guys just can't seem to get enough Pedal Steel or Lap Steel in the mix. I play mostly these kinds of gigs and I'm actually getting asked to turn up and the guitar player gets asked to turn down!

Sadly, that seems to be the total opposite in the country scene.

Joe Smith · Post by **Joe Smith** » 16 Aug 2009 8:31 am

I used to play in a rock band and had the same problem. My solution was to use two big loud amps and stack um. When it was my time to play, believe me I could be heard.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 16 Aug 2009 8:48 am

mickey....i've felt your pain also....now when someone says they couldn't hear me i just say, 'wow, too bad...i just played the best licks of my life!'

my responsibility for sound ends at the grill cloth!

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 16 Aug 2009 8:51 am

Randy, I am in town that night, I think we are opening for you guys...I will check. If not, I would love to come down and hang with you...The mainstage has a different sound tech I think.Thanks for all the posts guys...David I got a couple good pics of you the other night!...you sounded great!...

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 16 Aug 2009 8:52 am

I have been fighting this for years, you have the gear, you have the chops, you are the real pro in the band but yet we do not want to hear to much of you. WOW.

If you were to loud with 2 small cabinets at BB's, then the PA was not loud enough for the vocals. I have been telling my sound man to just turn up the PA I am not turning down. This does not set well believe me.

At church I have to ask players to turn down but I go to great lengths to assure them I have them covered in the mix.

I have been pointing one of my cab up at me and the other out to the club, that way I can hear and the club get some also.

It is amazing how many "small bands" are able to mix themselves from the stage, better than some sound men do from out front.

One solution might be to bring your own "trusted and trained" sound man to the gig.

Larry Behm

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 16 Aug 2009 9:00 am

Larry, that would be more desireable, however, in this venue that be a political can of worms that Im sure the band wouldnt open...I think hes been there since the club opened in the 80s, and the band rotation is weekly...Its a REALLY cool place to play...always packed to the walls...And you KNOW how many great looking TX girls there are here?>..Right?>.LOL>..Mick

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 16 Aug 2009 9:19 am

Can't have you covering up the drums !! :)
Hook

Charley Wilder · Post by **Charley Wilder** » 16 Aug 2009 9:44 am

As a sound man once told our lead singer and me,"Them people are here to dance and have a good time. They don't give a damn about your singin' OR your steel"! Okay.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 16 Aug 2009 10:04 am

I know it well...the "Sound Man thinks he's a Producer" syndrome.

What are you gonna do? Play it like you hear the mix should be, which might in fact be too loud for him to put you in the mix at all? Or are you gonna try to keep him happy and make yourself miserable by second guessing that what he's telling you is right? Of course then you know your part can't possibly be any good if it doesn't feel right to you as you're playing it. Especially if you can't hear it.

The older guys among us just don't quite understand why things are this way, but unfortunately it's just the way things are now.

This is why I'm turning down more and more gigs in the big dance venues. It's usually a guaranteed headache on the drive home anyway.

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 16 Aug 2009 10:08 am

Hey Mickey next time just bring along that stiff #5 iron....sometimes you only have to show it to them...othertimes...

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 16 Aug 2009 10:14 am

Based on past experience, I hold (most) soundmen in the same high esteem as carnival ride operators.

Al Collinsworth · Post by **Al Collinsworth** » 16 Aug 2009 11:04 am

Dean Parks · Post by **Dean Parks** » 16 Aug 2009 1:21 pm

Mickey-

Just a couple of thoughts that may or may not apply...

1- If a player has his speaker inadvertently pointed directly toward a vocal mic, it could be registering as loud on the vocal channel as the vocal itself.

2- "Beaming" is a phenomenon that causes a speaker to be MUCH brighter and more cutting when it's pointed directly at a listener. It's a drastic difference between what the player hears and what that unfortunate column of people directly in line with the speaker hears. Just tilting the speaker 5 degrees in any other direction solves this. (I have installed adhesive bass-drum beater-pads on the back of the grill cloth directly in front of the speaker-center to insure beaming is a non-issue).

If one of your speakers was pointed directly at the sound guy's head, even if in the distance, or toward a vocal mic, this could cause a disagreement between the player and the mixer... they're both right, but from their point of view.

Having said all this, I do hate to trust a sound guy... way more often than not, he's not gonna get as good a mix as a good band on a good stage gets when they balance themselves. I'm just saying it doesn't hurt to at least remove all the traps on the player's end whenever possible!

Wish I could have heard you guys! Maybe on my next visit to Cowtown!

-dean-

Tommy Shown · Post by **Tommy Shown** » 16 Aug 2009 3:17 pm

Mickey you have every right to feel that way, I have been fortunate, I played a show one night where the sound was coming from one side and It wasn't the sound man's fault. It turned out that we lost a channel for the speakers on one side of the stage.
And I have had a night where the house speakers went out and if anyone wanted to hear us they had to come down to the stage and listen to what we were playing through the monitors.I have even had people come and tell me that I needed to be louder and they would go tell the sound man to turn me up. Because they could not hear me through the board. I hope Billy Bob's gets another sound man. It's like today when I went to church with my wife. They put us down in front next to where the singers and the band was playing.
They had it so loud, that I could not understand the lyrics they were singing in their songs. Thank God they would post them on the screen behind them. I don't know the first thing about running sound, but I do know when they have it so loud that you cannot understand what they are saying.
Tommy Shown

The Steel Guitar Forum

Steel Discrimination

Steel Discrimination

Not Surprised

Bobs

Soundman