g# to g lower

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 31 Dec 2006 5:31 pm

I have a GFI Ultra S-10 which is stock. I think I really want to be able to lower both g#'s to g. Any opinions on the best way to accomplish this?

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 31 Dec 2006 5:58 pm

Do you want it on a knee or a pedal? How many pedals & knees are on your "stock" GFI Ultra? The change you describe gives you a minor chord at the fret you're on. Open steel would be a G minor at the 3rd (or G) fret (In other words no other pedals beside the one you decided to put it on) If your steel is set up E9th (I assume it is, though you didn't say?) You can get a minor chord three frets up (on the Bb or 6th fret) Talk yourself out of this idea and save your pedals & knees for better things to come as you learn the E9th tuning. Just an old picker's thoughts. Jeff Newman got me started on E9th (only learned C6th to that point, starting in 1946) at a Washington PA seminar in 1979!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 31 Dec 2006 7:39 pm

'Looks like your RKL is your "experimental" lever.
First I would just tune your existing RKL string 1 to only go to G, and same for string 6.
This way you can be experiminting with the G note in a matter of seconds with no intrusive mods.

If you want to make the change, I would use the hardware from RKL string 2 and switch it to G#'s to G (string 6 hardware is already in place).
Leave string 1 as it is, or just back off the endplate tuner for now so there is no pull on that string when the lever is enguaged.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 31 Dec 2006 8:08 pm

Doug, here's a link to the stock GFI E9 copendant: http://www.gfimusicalproducts.com/Table ... Tables.htm

I don't want to change the functions of any of my pedals, or of 3 of the knees for certain. I was thinking of the possibliliy of adding another pedal for this change, and if so, where should it go? In the 0 position, or in the 4 position? If I were to put this on a knee lever, could it go on a vertical (which I don't currently have,) or would I be wasting a lower on the B string? I'm sure I don't want to loose the RKL G-F# lower, but I'm finding that I don't use the RKR at all.

OTOH, maybe I should look into a raise for the F# instead?

Stephen Dorocke · Post by **Stephen Dorocke** » 31 Dec 2006 9:19 pm

I have that change on my vertical knee. I find it essential..

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 31 Dec 2006 9:48 pm

I have it on RKL on E9.
and LKL on C6,
I certainly know it is available in different frets,
but would not go back....

I see many who have it on a pedal, but
you can't easily go from AB down to a
minor open chord like that.
(sure raise B pedal, but you need to slide up for that)

On E9 vertical I have the Jeff lever lower B's
(minors AB down, flats 5th for AB up),
and use that and G lower together for passing chords.
I also lower D# to D when I am tuned to D#.

I was playing some minory swing jazz, and it became obvious,
that this was the ONLY way to comp the changes at proper speed.
But it works logically for other music too.
I changed it and never looked back.

From my theory standpoint it is an indespensable change,
regardless of some prevailing standards.

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 1 Jan 2007 6:10 am

I have the 6th G# to G on my booWah pedal, which I always move from pedal 8 to pedal 4, I just reach over there with my foot & get the G. It works good for me, but if you don't have a D-10, your gonna have to use a lever.

Ernie Pollock

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 1 Jan 2007 6:21 am

I have the 6th string lower to G# to F# with a knee lever. I also "split" the lower with the B pedal for the G. I've had this on my Franklin since it was new (81) and before that I had a double stop to lower that on my 71 PP Emmons.

Next to the lever that lowers the E's to Eb, that is my second most used knee lever/changes.

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 1 Jan 2007 8:42 am

Hey Ernie, I'm surprised that everybody has not made that move on the C6th, IMHO, that is where it should be.

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 1 Jan 2007 9:31 am

Hey Twayne, the best place to have that change if you're going for a floor pedal is in the "0" or 1st pedal position just to the left of your "A" pedal (Emmons setup). It's very useful there both by itself (minors) or with the A pedal (diminished, etc.) One nice move is just to use that pedal for a turnaround. example. say you're in the key of A, fifth fret, no pedals and want to do a nice smooth intro or turnaround from the V chord. Just go up to the 9th fret with that pedal depressed, pick strings 1,2,&3, while at fret 9, slide back to fret 8, then fret 7, all the while with the pedal still depressed. Pick strings 1,2, & 3 again at fret 7 and slide to fret 9. Pick the same strings again at fret 10 with the pedal released, slide back to fret 9 while depressing the pedal. Pick the same strings again at fret 7 with the pedal still depressed. Slide back to fret 5 while releasing the pedal as you're moving. You can do the same thing with a C pedal but I like doing it this way.............JH in Va.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 1 Jan 2007 9:38 am

I have the G# to G change on a knee lever- a cluster on my right knee, because it us useful on both the E9 and B6 sides of the U-12 tuning, but if you're playing an S-10, the best place for it is on a zero pedal to the left of the A pedal, so you can use those 2 together to form diminished or implied 7th chords.

On a related note, (no pun intended) it has been suggested that this change is used to make the pedals up chord minor. This is of course true, but my opinion is that it is better to move the bar down 2 frets and use the B and C pedals instead. The reason is so that you can use the pedals to play scale passages and licks. The scale degrees in this position are root (on the 7th and 4th strings,) second on the 3rd and 6th strings with the B pedal up, and b3 on those same strings wit the B pedal down. the only scale passage you get by using the G# to G natural pedal or knee lever to make the chord minor, is 3 to b3 or vice versa. Not very useful unless you're playing the theme from 2001.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 1 Jan 2007 11:01 am

Twayn, I have the pulls on my LKL. It makes it quite easy to go from an AB pull to the open minor. Also I use the knee quite a bit in conjunction with the A pedal, especially on blues and classic rock tunes.

Phred

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 1 Jan 2007 11:40 am

I have all 3 (3rd/6th/11th) G#-G in my 12 string extended E9th on my 1st or "0" pedal.
JE:-)>

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 1 Jan 2007 11:55 am

Here's the tally so far:

3 - 0 pedal
2 - RKL
1 - LKL
1 - Vert
1 - RKL/B split
1 - don't do it!!

Keep 'em coming!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 1 Jan 2007 12:28 pm

FWIW, I had it on pedal 0 for a while, and found it was hard to make a smooth transition on string 6 from the A+B to A+0 7th chord, which is very smooth when having it on a right knee.
I currently have it on RKL2, as this turned out to be the most logical place to add this change as a 6th lever.
If you are going to add a lever or pedal, then that opens up the placement possibilities for sure.
The split tuning thing is a good option, too.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 1 Jan 2007 1:47 pm

I've had that change for at least 20 years and it's not just about getting minor chords with pedals up so don't let anyone talk you out of it. I had it on LKR on a D-10 when the E changes were on the right knee like Jeff Newman.Then when I went to a U-12 I switched the E changes to the left knee and put the change in question on RKR on my Sierra. Lowering 3 strings proved kinda stiff on a Sierra so I put it on my 0 pedal.It's true that you'll use it a lot with your A pedal but I found there's quite a bit of jumping over pedals during II-V-I turnarounds,so when I got my Excel U-12,I put it on RKR again and with the Excel it works like butter there. I'd say put it on the opposite knee from your E changes.To take it one step further,you could lower your 2nd string to C# with the same lever (if it'll do it without being too stiff) and get a real hip minor 6th chord voicing.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 1 Jan 2007 2:29 pm

I have both G#'s to G on LKL front, (E's to F on LKL rear). I use it constantly, for various things. I feel it's so useful that I can't understand why it hasn't become a "standard" change. If you don't want two LKLs, I'd put it on LKR. I should mention that I lower my E's on RKL, which I highly recommend also.
As to what Michael said about the C# lower, if you have your G lowers on the opposite knee from a 2nd string D/C# lower, you can get minor(major 7), minor 7, or minor 6. And with the 1st string you can add the 9th to all of them.

Damien Odell · Post by **Damien Odell** » 1 Jan 2007 3:57 pm

I have the G# to G on my LKR. I know there are other places where I can get a minor, but it does come in very handy at times. That change can do other things also - like some weird diminished stuff. Again - that can be found in other places too, but I find that this change really suits me coming from a regular guitar background I like to have a minor available without sliding up or down frets.
I use the 5th and 10th lower to Bb on LKV for the same reason.

Damien

Fred Amendola · Post by **Fred Amendola** » 1 Jan 2007 4:23 pm

Remember that if you lower the 3rd string, you can expect it to break even more often that it does now. I'm with Doug. Everything you have on your setup now, is probably more important that G#'s to G.
As an aside, you might already have the 6th string G note by splitting your B pedal with your RKL.

My two cents
Fred

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 1 Jan 2007 6:19 pm

As far as the C# lower being on it's own lever on a different knee and getting all those combinations - that's only possible if you raise and lower your Es on different knees. My suggestion was based on the fact that 99% of E9 players have the E changes on the same knee. You could of course have the G#>G change on a vertical or a zero pedal and have nearly all possible combinations that way. These days you can easily get 6 or 7 knee levers on an E9 tuning so I wouldn't shy away from experimentation.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 1 Jan 2007 6:21 pm

I don't think I can put "front" and "back" knee levers on a GFI S-10 frame (can I???), so at this point, when it comes to putting this change on a lever, I'm leaning towards RKR, since I currently don't really use it at all. I am worried about how stiff it might be. It's currently so stiff that to throw it all the way causes the guitar to skid on the floor.

I've heard some of the drawbacks to putting this change on a 0 pedal, anyone know of potential problems with this change on RKR?

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 1 Jan 2007 8:36 pm

My suggestion was based on the fact that 99% of E9 players have the E changes on the same knee.

I think that's a considerable exaggeration. From what I've seen, it's probably more like 75%. Not that being in the majority (or in the minority) necessarily proves that something is better (or worse).

I don't think I can put "front" and "back" knee levers on a GFI S-10 frame (can I???)

Twayn, maybe not. I have them on a GFI SD-10--I haven't had an S-10 since 1984, so I don't have a sense of how one's knees fit under one. I failed to notice that yours was an S-10.
For the ways I use this change, having it on a pedal would be disadvantageous, as described by others. I'd go with a lever, but leave RKR as it is. I personally prefer to use RKR for the 2nd and 9th string lowers, as do many (but not all) players.

when it comes to putting this change on a lever, I'm leaning towards RKR, since I currently don't really use it at all. I am worried about how stiff it might be. It's currently so stiff that to throw it all the way causes the guitar to skid on the floor.

Something must be out of adjustment. Every GFI I've played has had some of the easiest knee lever action of any steel. It sounds as though your half stop is set up too tight. But that's also the problem with a lightweight steel like the GFI--on my SD-10 I have to be careful hitting the vertical to avoid lifting the guitar!

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 1 Jan 2007 10:02 pm

I realized (yet again) that why RKR feels so stiff is that my knee is right up at the top of the lever because my foot is on the volume pedal. Bad leverage in that position.

Speaking of half-stops, I know I have one on RKR, but is it possible to get a good solid half-stop on the 6th string on a GFI Ultra? A half-stop would probably do me for now while I decide what I'd like to do with the 3rd string. I've been toying with the idea of a split for this but I really don't like the feel that much and would like to get it another way if possible.

The idea of moving all my pedals down one slot to accomodate a 0 pedal and all of the work involved kinda fills me with dread.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 2 Jan 2007 12:04 am

It's certainly possible to get two layers of knee levers on a single wide body by playing with angles and flaring the levers away from each other and having 2 verticals on the left knee. I have 9 levers on a keyless single wide U-12 Excel and get to all of them handily.

And my advice if your right knee is hitting the levers at too high a point to be easily activated,then get a lift kit and/or get a low profile volume pedal.

Scott Swartz · Post by **Scott Swartz** » 2 Jan 2007 6:59 am

Lots of good info in this latest G#-G thread, a favorite change of mine, I would like to add a few things.

-I agree the 3rd will break more frequently with both raise and lower of the G#, but its not a huge problem

-you will most times want the 2nd string to be the D note when the G#-G is engaged. I went ahead and added the D#-D to my zero pedal. This has the additional advantage of allowing two distinct temperings for the D note.

-With Gs and Ds you have a G6 tuning (plus F#s) across the neck creating a bunch of additional scales and 6th lick positions

-The G#-G gives a very smooth sound for descending licks on strings 3-4-5-6 instead of using the AB pedals. Similar to the difference in using the F lever and the D lever, same notes different sound

-The zero pedal makes since to me even if you don’t use the G#-G on it, assuming you have 4 pedals. You can do the Franklin pedal or other things, I don’t see a great reason why A should be the first pedal, ergonomically (with Emmons pedal setup especially) I think its easier for most people to pivot the left foot to the left, so the zero pedal makes more sense for an extra pedal than a pedal 4.

The Steel Guitar Forum

g# to g lower

g# to g lower

I like the 6th string to G

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