Roy Wiggins tuning on "Molly Darlin'"?

John Pelz · Post by **John Pelz** » 17 Nov 2004 6:58 pm

Last night I started trying to figure out "Molly Darlin'," as recorded by Little Roy Wiggins on his "Memory Time" album. I have read that Wiggins was known to use E maj., E13, and C#m7 tunings throughout his career, and would like to know which one he used on this recording.

Right now I'm using E maj., and the tune seems to lay out fairly well (I've got the first 30 seconds or so of the tune worked out), although I could swear that, as I hear it on the recording, the interval between the top 2 strings is a minor third, and a fourth between the 2nd & 3rd strings from the top. Which would preclude E major. I could very well be wrong on that, but that's how it sounds to my not-particularly-developed ear (yet, that is; I'm working on it!). I fiddled around with E13 (G#~E~C#~B~G#~E~C#~B), but the tune doesn't seem to lay out as nicely.

Any ideas on which tuning LRW is actually using on "Molly Darlin'"?

This is my first real stab at figuring out a tune by ear, and the learning curve is kind of steep right now!

I figured it'd be best to figure out exactly which tuning Wiggins was using, before I get too far involved in figuring out the tune itself.

Also, was Wiggins ever particularly known for using slants -- or not? I'm not afraid of those slants, but there do seem to be a fair number of forward-slants as I try to figure out "Molly Darlin'" in E major, and was just curious. Thanks for any advice/help.[This message was edited by John Pelz on 17 November 2004 at 06:58 PM.]

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 17 Nov 2004 10:15 pm

I'd be willing to bet one of Keoki's old tired sled dogs that that tuning is "C6th" jacked up a full 1 1/2 tones; Perhaps G6th or something or another. He rolls a full open, unbarred chord when kicking off Eddy Arnold's "C-h-r-i-s-t-m-a-s". I think he also plays most of his melody lines on the 5th & 6th strings, occasionally rolling a full chord at the end of a phrase ending up with a high, high note on top. Then again, I could be wrong. I've been playing it that way for so many years now but by no stretch am I a "Little Ivan" expert.

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 18 Nov 2004 8:27 am

To the best of my knowledge, he used E major (root on top)on all of Eddie's stuff in the early years -- back when "Molly" was recorded. Backstage at the Opry one night I, personally, showed him how he could raise the second string (5th tone of the scale) to a sixth tone to get the so-called "C#min7" tuning. We laughed about how someone had gotten "fancy" and named the tuning "C#min7" when it was really just "E6".

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Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 18 Nov 2004 9:38 am

Yes Roy, when people started giving "fancy" names to the tunings on steel guitars it became a new ballgame.

(and also maybe not near as much fun)

.......before that, we used to listen to the radio for "something" that we would like to sound like, and then by trial and error come up with a tuning for our guitars. That's the evolutionary process that most of us old timers used to find a tuning that we wanted to use.
www.genejones.com

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 18 Nov 2004 3:59 pm

Right on, Gene. I remembers those days rightly well, yes indeed I do. That was what made it exciting for me; it was part of the basic foundation of learning the steel guitar. I'm surprised someone hasn't yet invented a device that simply locks onto the tuning pegs; dial in the notes desired for each string and then press a RED BUTTON and zapp! It's in tune with all of its clicks SHARP and/or FLAT, like all the new folks are doing these days. Of course, now, it would have to be programmed to tune from the bottom UP, right?

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 19 Nov 2004 5:47 am

Ray, I always felt that you were a fine fellow back when you were the secretary of the Jerry Byrd fan club and thru the later yrs. However I have noe lost faith in you since you champion tuning from the bottom up. No gentleman would ever do that and BTW,were you the guy that ran off with the $800,000 that were in the club fund when it ended? I know Al Stotler or Dwight Harris wouldn'; or would they. CC

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 19 Nov 2004 8:32 am

WEll now Mr. Johnson.....your opening remarks are much appreciated but the one about the missing $800,000 kinda smarts. There wasn't that much there.....as you can clearly see, my wild purchases of Rickenbacher guitars ended after but eleven of them, so that's roughly, what, $11,000 and change. AND, I don't even have an airplane like in the good ole days. But our friend Bobbe has one, maybe two. Was he ever in the club? And I spoketh the phrase 'BOTTOM UP' as a reminder to any would-be inventors. The gadget I suggested was for the newbies that prefer to do it their way rather than by the long established method that always worked so well for the really big name stars of steel guitar.

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 19 Nov 2004 10:40 am

Maybe Bobbe made off with all the money and I don't believe he was even a member. I notice Dewight moved to Fla from the frozen north and lived a life of luxury. Maybe? I know Keoki Lake could never as he is one of the blue eyed arabs up there in Edmonton and has more money than he could ever use. The mystery continues. I am working to perfect the devise you are talking about but the tuning will be top to bottom and at the rate I am going will take about two more yrs. I believe I can sell them for $7823.14 if I get orders for 3 or more. BTW Skip, have you ever read DeWights article on a case for a Rick? Its hilarious. If not I'll send, Its called "A Riggenbagger. CC

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 19 Nov 2004 7:31 pm

WEll now, you've certainly "hooked" me. I'd love to see it/read it or whatever. But remember, if you convert that device to tune from top to bottom, some of them younger folks won't likely be able to figure it out....Don't ruin a good thing with engineering techniques that might not fit in the current trend of things.

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 19 Nov 2004 7:49 pm

I'll get it in the mail ASAP. CC

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 22 Nov 2004 9:37 am

I firmly believe the correct way to tune a guitar is 1-8, 2-7, 3-6, & 4-5. This minimizes stress on the guitar.
Who the heck invented from the bottom up? Any comments Ray?

Roger

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 22 Nov 2004 7:24 pm

Don't look at ME! I don't know nothing about it!

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 23 Nov 2004 1:26 am

I found a very good way to get the E9/13 as near in tune as possible! If you tune the G#–E–C#–B–G# and then run your thumb-pick (if you use one) backwards from #1 to #5, letting them all sustain, it's fairly simple to get that #6 (F#) to blend with that darned #3 & #4 by tuning it right between JI with those two strings. You can hear much easier wheter on not that F# is sharp or flat! Just bring it up slowly and stop when you hear that blend. The if your 7th. string is a (D), tune that JI to the F# and it will fall about right to blend with those other darned #6-G# & #5-B strings! I tune Strs. 1,2,3,4,5 & 8 and then blend #6 and finally #7.

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Robert Williams · Post by **Robert Williams** » 25 Nov 2004 12:24 pm

Roy used an E6th-E13th tuning almost exclusively. He even told me he put the same tuning on both necks with the following differences.
E6th from the top.
G# E C# B G# E B E
G# E C# B G# E D B [E13th]
This was the tuning used on Molly "Darling"
Bob Williams

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 25 Nov 2004 3:16 pm

Ihave been holding off on this one as there has been so many different opinions. I got this from the horses mouth as Roy anf I kept pretty close contact. Roy used E maj starting out, went to E7, and Roy Ayers, he told me the story about you showing him how to raise the B to C# to get E6. About 10 yrs or so before his death, he decided he needed more fullness to his playing and went to E13. I said NO NO NO Roy you will destroy your style. Roy worked like mad to remember to gap pick on E13 to keep his style and also to use the fullness that E13 offered. In fact Roy said he almost gave up and went back to E7, when everything came together and was able to stay with E13. I can't remember when the version of Molly was cut that you are refering to so I don't know what tuning was used. I do know the orig version w/vocal was E7. CC