Same song.....all day

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 21 Jul 2005 8:55 am

I was curious to know if I'm the only wannabe steel player out there that will practice the same song all day? Once I learn the song then I will do it over and over again to polish it up and figure out where to ad notes or chords. Is this the norm for most players?

Rick

Zach Parish · Post by **Zach Parish** » 21 Jul 2005 10:04 am

When I learn a new song, I repeat it until I get a good grasp on it. If I have trouble figuring out a certain lick, I will go play a song that I already know before I get too frustrated. Either that or take a break. If I get frustrated, learning new stuff is not an option. Once I get back into the right state of mind, I am ready to try the new song again.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Jul 2005 10:40 am

Not only is it the norm, it's MANDATORY if you want to maximize the chances of playing it right in performance.

If I work up a solo (or steal one

) or an instrumental to play on a gig, I figure if I can't play it at or above concert tempo with no mistakes 10 times in a row, it won't work at a gig.

How you practice to get to that point is VERY IMPORTANT. You're wasting your time if you are trying to get a tricky phrase up to speed by playing along at the regular tempo with a rhythm track or a metronome. You'll beat yourself to death. Start at HALF tempo -- use the metronome (or BIAB) and slow it WAAAAAAY down. Start from there. Play it ten times. If you make mistakes play it until it is PERFECT ten times in a row before you speed it up. When you do speed it up, do so gradually. If you do this and get it perfect 10x in a row at or above tempo, you'll PROBABLY be able to play it on a gig. If not, better save it for next week and practice some more.

Or you can do like many/most steel players do and practice it on the bandstand.

If it's worth playing, it's worth playing right. The more you practice like this, the more accurate your plaing will become overall and the quicker new stuff can be perfected.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 21 Jul 2005 11:06 am

Great question. Great answers. What a forum.

Buck Grantham R.I.P. · Post by **Buck Grantham R.I.P.** » 21 Jul 2005 11:10 am

Larry, I think you have the right idea. I learn the song first at a very slow tempo ,then gradually speed it up . If I learn it wrong , it's hard for me to go back and correct it.

Chris Spencer · Post by **Chris Spencer** » 21 Jul 2005 11:42 am

I bought one of those TASCAM cd players that slows it down while retaining the correct pitch. Some times I can't even hear it well enough if it's really fast.

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 21 Jul 2005 11:55 am

ever since the 40s all the bands I have been in learn it cold. Someone requests a song and at least one band member knows it and we take off on it. The adrenalin flows andthe music is fresh. Wouldn't think of practising a song as on the bandstand it is played diffently than it was practised.One of the things that made Bob Wills great was no one ever knew who would get the next chorus so it kept all alert and when Bob pointed his bow at you you had better be ready. Possibly for month you had played the bridge and now you had to play the release. Hear the song and take off on it. CC

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 21 Jul 2005 12:37 pm

Same song all day?
Heck, I've done the same 20 second solo all day.

When it comes time to hit it on the bandstand I want to be sure I'll nail it.

Larry's post nailed my outlook on this issue.

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 21 Jul 2005 12:42 pm

Yes,
Ill play it over and over and over till I can play it in my sleep. And when it comes to play it on stage , Ill play something completely different! Then back home, Ill play it the same old way again!..I guess I like to test myself or something. Never happy with anything I play for very long and that goes for Steel. dobro, mando, six string, ect,ect..... I dont really know why.

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SHO~BUDS, Steelkings,
Fender guitars,
Hilton pedals, Preston
covers, and Taylor(Tut, that is)Resos.
"still alive and well"

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Jul 2005 1:03 pm

cc
What you're talking about is a totally different thing, IMHO. A good musician should certainly be able to 'fake it' on the bandstand. We all live and die by this ability in bar bands. HOWEVER, if you decide to compose a solo to use in a new tune and want to PLAY IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME", you are putting it on the line.

Rather than not screwing up the chords (the objective in your example), your objective is to play a note for note passage as a solo (for example). I believe that what you come up with on the spot, brilliant as it might be, will rarely be as polished as a solo you think about beforehand, practice diligently, and perform exactly as you'd planned.

Certainly, being able to 'wing it' is a skill we all need to develop, but it's a totally different process from designing, practicing, and playing a composed solo. That's what I think, in any case.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 21 Jul 2005 2:04 pm

Same song, all day, the next day, and possibly into next week. I can be totally fluent in a lick on Wednesday and then be totally (well... mostly) lost with it by Saturday. For me it takes muscle memory, especially the muscle between the ears...

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 21 Jul 2005 2:49 pm

What's the song? What's the song?

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 21 Jul 2005 3:09 pm

I surrender to higher intellect. Have fun CC

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 21 Jul 2005 5:07 pm

Well I'm working on (and I know this won't set well with all the country music fans out there) Paul Mc Cartneys unplugged album. The name of the tune is "And I love her". Great little tune just begging for some steel guitar. Yesterday (no pun intended) it sounded great. Today......not so great. Thats the way it goes I guess.

Rick

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 21 Jul 2005 5:37 pm

Great tune! Country Schmuntry. Music is music. I admire your open-mindedness [is that a word?] in choosing this song.

I'm sure you'll have it down shortly. Maybe post a little clip of it here when you're ready?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 21 Jul 2005 9:03 pm

(this is coming from 40 years of guitar standpoint....I'm still barely a rookie steel player).

I lear a new tune by working out the chords, getting a skeleton of the melody together, and then making sure I can jam my way through on rhythm and lead with as few clams as possible.

If I sound exactly like a recording - in other words, if I'm copying something note-for-note, nuance for nuance....

I've made a HORRIBLE mistake.

Music is, IMO, about playing in many cases recognizable tuunes but with your own style or personality. Copying solos by rote is death on the bandstand. I've watched players who could nail some Albert Lee lead....until the band decided to "take it around again". All he could do was play the same thing. And if you get lost and only know some famous player's version of a tune - you're DEAD.

In other words, better to be able to fake it with sme semblance of melody than play a perfectly robotic imitation of some other guy's creativity. That, to me, is equivalent to reading a book.

Same goes for "planning" solos. To me, they sound "constructed", frozen and fake. I'll take a good improvisor any day over a hot picker who has to work out all his solos in advance (those kinds of players are also boring as heck to play with - same thing every night. Yawn....).

Give me some creativity. A hot solo once can be fun to hear - but if I happened to hear the same thing the next night, you've made my list of forgettable players.

And if you do nothing but play "licks off of records"...well, there's an old Martin Mull tune that addresses that affliction.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 21 July 2005 at 10:09 PM.][This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 21 July 2005 at 10:11 PM.]

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 22 Jul 2005 12:15 am

I adhere to Larrys point of view, and often practice the same song for days on end.

Having said that, I must admit that I have somehow the same viewpoints towards "composed" solos as others have expressed.
When the rare occasion turns up where an unexpected solo really cooks, I use to say that the ideal improvisation beats any composition any time.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 22 Jul 2005 3:29 am

I go to a regular guitar teacher mainly to learn theory. He has his masters in music and is one of Houston’s finest guitar players. He is a full time musician and I, along with many others, have a great deal of respect for his knowledge and his playing. He once told me almost the same thing Larry Bell posted about playing SLOW and deliberate until its correct. In his words "you should be able to play it without a lot of thought at home, that way "in the heat of battle" it will just flow out. On the bandstand, there is no substitution for being prepared and having confidence. You should be chomping at the bit to play your solo, not nervously waiting to see if you can pull it off without a mistake.If your worried about the solo, you haven't practiced it enough or you didn't practice it correctly." He always calls a gig "the heat of battle".His advised has worked VERY well for my on guitar, so I see no reason why it wouldn't apply equally to steel. Being a beginner, I am working through the Winnie Winston book and Fred Layman’s book as well. I will practice a scale position until I can't sit any longer. I begin each new scale EXTREMELY slow, ridiculously slow in fact, to make sure every note is correct and every pedal or lever moves when it’s supposed to. Then, I will pick it up to speed until I can play it ascending and descending the neck with a high degree of accuracy. Having done this has made the songs in Winnie Winston’s book very meaningful, as he pretty much teaches a scale and then applies it to a song. Makes perfect sense to me, but I may sometimes spend 6 to 8 hours getting one scale pattern correct and then analyzing how it can interact with another combination of patterns to make song.....James

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 22 Jul 2005 5:21 am

Jeff's post appears to assume that a player can only do one or the other. That might be true for some, but is not true for good musicians.

As Larry pointed out, both approaches are necessary to suceed in a commercial environment.

Suppose you are playing "Don't Rock The Jukebox", around here you wouldn't have a job if you didn't do a believable job of recreating Paul's classic solo and fills.

But what if the lead guitarist nods to you, when it is time for his part? You have to be able to think on your feet, jump in and create a Steel part that fits. (It will be this guitarist's last gig with the band).

IMO, commerical players who don't learn the parts are either lacking in talent, or motivation.

Note I said commercial players a lot in this post.
There are other styles of music where creativity and originality mandatory.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 22 Jul 2005 6:31 am

I guess what I was driving at is the ABILITY and DISCIPLINE to learn and perform a complex, challenging solo without mistakes. Whether you DO it or not is immaterial. If you CAN'T play what you intend to play, in my book, you still have work to do.

Joey expressed it well. 99.44% of the steel solos I've played over 30+ years have been off the top of my head. Sometimes there's a good'un, but I've never been able to come up with a better solo to 'Night Life' (for example) than the one Buddy played with Ray Price. I am physically and musically incapable of playing a better solo than that one. So that's the one I play for my FIRST solo. If it comes around again, I wing it. No big deal.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 22 July 2005 at 07:37 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 22 Jul 2005 10:39 am

the ideal improvisation beats any composition any time.

There is so much to say about this but I'll try to keep is succinct. An "ideal" improvised solo SOUNDS composed. It has structure, dynamics, melody, harmony, phrasing, rhythm, and other qualities, all in perfect balance. The ONLY way to develop your improvisational abilities to where they would approach such as "ideal" is to spend a lot of time composing original solos. If you can't compose an original solo in your living room, you certainly cannot aspire to improvise an ideal solo on the bandstand. An improvised solo on the bandstand devoid of any composition has only freshness and energy. As you add composition to it, it gathers musical value. All IMO.

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Jeff's Jazz

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 22 Jul 2005 11:45 am

your opinion means a lot to me

I couldn't have said it better.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 22 Jul 2005 12:03 pm

I agree with the consensus here. I will play the same song a thousand times until it sounds good to me. But I usually rotate 2 or 3 songs i am working on at a time. So for a week or so i will play the same 2 or 3 songs over and over .....

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 22 Jul 2005 12:10 pm

Joey Ace - I'm not sure of your terminology. When you say "commercial players", do you mean guys who do jingle work (in the studio), studio players in general, or just people who play "popular" music in club settings?

Odd how things are in different regions. Around here (L.A./Hollywood) seldom does a player get knocked for not playing just like some recorded version, in fact often the reverse is true. Most fans here seem to prefer non-copycat playing.

And I have to profess ignorance again, as I'm one of thoose who's not a country player or fan - but not being familiar with "Don't Rock the Jukebox"...who's "Paul"?

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 22 Jul 2005 1:10 pm

"Don't Rock the Jukebox"...who's "Paul"?

Paul is one of Nashville's premier recording pickers. Paul Franklin (hope I spelled that right)is an awesome talent.

Rick