Serious jazz teacher in NYC?

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 17 Nov 2003 11:34 am

Is there ANYONE in NYC that is academically qualified to give advanced lessons on the psg in the jazz idiom? I am very serious here. I'm talking bebop mainly and I'm talking qualified as far as credentials are concerned, like through a college. I know the answer is most likely no, but I figure I'll give it a shot here anyway. I'm studying this stuff and will continue to study with non-psg players(of course), but it can't hurt to ask for something that would be so nice.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 17 Nov 2003 2:07 pm

James, I'm not academically qualified according to your definition, but I have figured out a lot of things about applying theory. I think I know what your general issues are. It's how to apply all the stuff you know to the idiosyncracies of a pedal steel tuning. What position, fret, strings, with or without pedals, which fingers to use, etc. etc. I have gone through that and unfortunately, it's a never ending battle since, to my knowledge, there is no precedent or instructional material to draw on as you would find in the accepted jazz instruments (piano, horns, guitar, etc.). All we have are courses with tab, which isn't good enough when you are playing jazz with an academic orientation. Anyone that is getting anywhere with this stuff is doing it by the seat of their pants. If you want to, I would be glad to get together and show you some of the things I'm doing and the concepts I have applied. No charge. In return, I would be very interested in what you have done and your concepts as well. We can probably figure out some of this stuff together. Let me know. .. Jeff

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Jeff's Jazz

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 17 Nov 2003 2:13 pm

Jeff, here is a good opportunity for you. How about putting together a Jazz Steel course and selling it to us here in the steel community. From what I understand you are very qualified and it is something that is sorely missing,as you said. I'm thinking book with cassete with some songs, tab, and theory as relates to the knee levers and pedals. What do you think? If you needed help with it I am in the printing business.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 17 November 2003 at 02:14 PM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 17 Nov 2003 4:09 pm

What's a 'cassette'?

(FWIW, if you wrote one, Jeff, I'd buy it)

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 17 Nov 2003 4:49 pm

Thats good Jim. CD anyone? (DVD even better)

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 17 Nov 2003 6:11 pm

I think you are best off taking from a jazz teacher and applying what you learn to the steel. I took for several years from a very heavy teacher here in Seattle, and it was an amazing experience. I'd be willing to bet that there are some decent jazz improvisation teachers in NYC

. Technique you can learn from a steel player, but technique isn't what jazz improvisation is all about. I took from a piano player, and I learned more about steel guitar technique from him than from any steel player. Not that he said 'hold your hand like X', but he would play voicings that don't easily come on the standard C6th, so I would need to learn how to play them effortlessly. Or attempt to, at least.

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john widgren · Post by **john widgren** » 18 Nov 2003 7:17 am

Jim Cohen and Jeff Lampert are two shining examples of jazz steel players with intelligence and heart in the Metro area. Also generous and fun human beings, both a credit to the PSG community.......John

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 18 Nov 2003 8:00 am

James,

I'm sure that Jeff could give you some very valuable insights. He is making you a great offer.

Bob

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 18 Nov 2003 8:10 am

John, thank you for that nice compliment. However, to clarify, I'm not really in the Metro area. I'm in Philadelphia, about 1.5 hours south of NYC. I think Jeff Lampert is da man!

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 18 Nov 2003 8:29 am

Thanks Kevin, John, Jim, and Bob. Hopefully James will consider my offer. Kevin, I've thought about it, but it's a lot of work. We'll see. By the way Bob, I've been meaning to ask you if it would be possible to get a .mp3 clip of the Britten (I think?) classical piece you recorded some number of months back. I remember listening several times, and thought it was haunting. Is is possible for you to e-mail a .mp3 attachment? That would be great if you could. Also, I would recommend anyone reading this thread to try to get a listen to it. I was very moved by it.

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Jeff's Jazz

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 18 Nov 2003 9:12 am

Moved to "Steel Players" section.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 18 Nov 2003 10:22 am

I've gotta disagree with one aspect of Dan T's post here.

Yes I do believe that studying jazz harmony with a pianist is an invaluable learning experience for any instrumentalist. No other instrument will give you more of a complete overview of music than a keyboard. Any jazz guitar teacher, or sax teacher, or bass, or whistle teacher etc. will tell you that. All my guitar teachers did...Johnny Smith, Dale Bruning(Bill Frizells teacher), Jimmy Wyble, Ted Green. It's the teacher's job of any instrument to transfer as much applyable wisdom from the keyboard to whatever axe he's teaching. I can't imagine how cool it would've been for me to actually have had a steel player show me how to approach what I was hearing to my steel when I was first trying to play PSG jazz! It might've taken me alot less time to figure out the basics. Heck I'm still stumbling over things on C6 that are probably Steel 101 for some us here.

I say Jeff's offer is a great one. It's rare to live close to anyone who consider's himself primarily a jazz PSG player. He knows alot!
[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 18 November 2003 at 10:31 AM.]

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 18 Nov 2003 10:33 am

I've been studying scholastically with a very good jazz guitar player for about 2 years. I informally study with a piano player as well. I am moving back to the city and looking go to school uptown to a more advanced jazz studies program. I'm just about done with the one I'm in. I'm not going to stop studying with non-psg players.
I just get a little disheartened when my good buddy gets a list of 15 jazz guitar masters and he gets to choose who he wants to study with at his school according to who's style he's really hip to. Same with the piano, same with the horn players and drummers. I get the short end of the stick to say the least when it comes to that. That is a huge problem in our instrument. You guys can agree and get all worked up about it on this forum, but there needs to be action. I feel very strongly about this issue and just don't understand why nobody hasn't had the Motivation to really do it in the past. Can't hang with New York? Too intimidated? Is it going to take a NYC native like myself to have the balls to try and stick it to these mofo's and do this for real? I haven't heard one jazz steel player who upon listening I can hear has actually lived this sh*t. It's a hell of a lot more than just a style of music. I realize I'm just searching for a trail that just hasn't been blazed and it is frustrating. Excuse me for venting, this the only place I can do it where it might have some meaning to someone.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 18 Nov 2003 10:53 am

Right on James! I could hear your NY accent as I read your post.

Keep fighting the good fight.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 18 Nov 2003 12:53 pm

Yep, sounds like you're going to have to do it yourself!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Nov 2003 1:45 pm

Absolutely sit down with Jeff.
If you ain't convinced you will learn a ton of jazz directly applicable to the steel, then you're not ready for him. IMHO.

I have sat down with him last time I was over, he knows his stuff, regardless of accadmic credits... I want knowlege and chops not a a certificate, all else is... achmmm academic.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 18 Nov 2003 1:48 pm

I realize I'm just searching for a trail that just hasn't been blazed and it is frustrating

Hopefully, you'll look at what you are doing (trailblazing) as the opportunity of a lifetime, and worth every bit of work you will have to put into it to make it happen. Like Rick said, you're truly fighting the good fight. You can spearhead a jazz steel movement in NYC, if you have the work ethic, talent, and mental aggressiveness to take on challenges. Here's hoping. And like I said, my door is open and my e-mail is on. It isn't much compared to what your colleagues have, but you have to find a way to take the resources you do have to get you to where you want to be. My best. .. Jeff

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[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 18 November 2003 at 01:51 PM.]

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 19 Nov 2003 1:52 am

I hope I don't get in trouble here.....

I definitely advise James to take Jeff up on his offer, Jeff has clearly spent some time both studying jazz and the pedal steel, and it will give you a huge leg up to learn what he has to offer.

I took some lessons (informally and formally) with a couple of really great C6th players when I was starting out (Bobby Black and Paul Franklin) and it really helped me out.

That said, if you are serious about jazz, then also stick with serious jazz teachers and just do the work to apply it to steel. That's one of the things about being a trailblazer, you get to go where nobody has gone before, but you also have to cut some bushes. Look at it in a positive way. Those guitar buddies of yours that can choose between 15 masters to study with are going to have a much harder time than you finding their own voice, which is what jazz is all about (IMHO). I know some pretty accomplished musicians here in Seattle who can play everything that Scofield ever played (or Joe Pass or Coltrane or whoever) but will probably never make a name for themselves. Because, well, if you want somebody who plays like Scofield you can just hire Scofield. Or any of the hundreds of other clones that are wandering Manhattan. But as a steel player, you have to make up a lot of this stuff. This is good. Even as accomplished a musician as Paul Franklin wouldn't consider himself to be a master jazz teacher. So take what you can from existing jazz steel players (by all means get together with Jeff), but also study with some serious jazz teachers. Rip off their stuff, adapt it to the steel, and all of a sudden you are an original

.

I'm only half kidding. I know I get to play with way better jazz musicians than I should because I play the steel, and play in a style that the jazz players haven't heard (and aren't sick of).

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[This message was edited by Dan Tyack on 19 November 2003 at 07:58 AM.]

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 19 Nov 2003 3:55 am

I'll add my 2 cents, in the hopes that I can provide you with some ideas that may help in you monumental and noble quest to become a jazz psg'er.
I guess you already realize that there are no
'academicly qualified' steel guitarist around NYC (or probably anywhere else). That said, I believe you should forego studying with a jazz guitarist and find an accomplished jazz piano/theorist to work on all the musical idioms used in the jazz language ie modes, subs, extended harmonies,rythmic variations etc.
My reason for saying this is that the PSG is not really like a 6 str guitar, and advanced lessons with a guitarist would be all about GUITAR voicings and guitar techniques, which would have minimal application to PSG.
Please also bear in mind that guys like Herbie Hancock & Bill Evans didnt study with jazz piano players, but studied classical music at Julliard. This allowed them to build the incredable technical skills required to become masterful improvisational composers- which is what jazz is all about in the end.
For what its worth my advice is similar to Dan Tyacks and others: Get a serious jazz man to teach you the MUSIC, then apply it to your instrument.
Also Jeffs kind offer should be pounced upon immediately- it's probably the closest thing
you can get to Jazz PSG instruction.

Anyway, before I shut up I would advise you to
do the following so you could succesfully pursue your goal:
1. Build your technique playing scales and chords in all keys- both plain and altered.

2. Improve your sight reading (read & play Bach and whatever other Baroque & Classical music that you can find that is playable on PSG)

3. Improve you ear training by copping solos
of the great jazz men from recordings- anyones solos, pianos, trumpet , saxes etc. Resist the urge to buy those '10 Great Jazz solos' type
transcriptions and just copy aurally.

4. Jam play jam play play play with whoever you can find that will let you sit in, thats where #1 & #3 are put to the test.

5. Learn the repetoire- from B'way standards
to modern Jazz classics- Make sure you have all the Fakes - the Real Books and the old Modern Jazz fakes etc- and play those tunes
a zillion time each...
and by all means call Jeff Lampert

Good luck, looking forward to hearing you some
day!

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 19 Nov 2003 10:05 am

You gotta love this forum! Great advice & ideas from all!

What Dan said is very true...playing the steel will sometimes give you an immediate "in" with some jazz players, because most true jazz free spirits are looking for unusual things to bring to the table. The responsibility for us is not to blow it. We gotta be ready when our chance comes! IMO, A true PSG-jazz blend has not really happened yet, so it could be up to you James.

Remember, there was a time not that long ago that jazz guitarists had to pay some serious dues to gain the respect of the rest of the jazz community. Now theyre accepted as commonplace.

Two more books to check out:

1.)The "Lydian Chromatic Concept" by George Russell
2.)The "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns" by N. Slonimsky

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 19 Nov 2003 2:44 pm

Great advice guys. I will be seeing Jeff in a couple of weeks when I'm back in the city.
The Lydian chromatic concept is great. I was working with it closely for a while. I think it helps to have the other methods that get at the same stuff down though. I realized it was a bit over my hand, not in comprehension, but practical use, if you can't play the traditional way as well. Killer for fusion though. I've seen that slominsky Hear it's great for sight reading because of those wild patterns. I'll be in touch

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 19 Nov 2003 10:51 pm

James, a couple of things I want to emphasise. One, I agree with Ron about going to a piano player/improve teacher. Guitar players are great, but sometimes (most times) they tend to look at the pedal steel as this bastard cousin of the guitar, and try to get you to play the stuff they do on guitar. Which is often the stuff they have tried to rip off from the piano players and sax players (but usually can't get it just right).

Second, if you can truly learn to read really really well on the steel, you will belong to a very small very exclusive group. I know one person in this group, there well may be more, but I don't know them. I mean read like a session sax player or violin player....

Third: Johnny Hodges. The man is the steel player's sax player.....

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