Trouble With On Stage Volume

Bob Miano · Post by **Bob Miano** » 16 Jun 2002 1:02 pm

I'm playing with a rock band (as well as a loud country band) and have trouble hearing myself on stage. Sometimes, if I'm lucky,
I'll get a monitor pretty close to me.....
but that's only if the amps are mike'd.
In that case, do most of you bring the amp as close to you as possible???? So you can hear it better?? Just wondering !!
Then, there are those gigs where there are no microphones for the amps....just the vocals. And even if I turned my amp (Nashville 1000) up to 11 I would have trouble hearing myself. If I can't hear myself that well, I'm not comfortable playing too much stuff.
Any thoughts ??
Thanks,
Bob
Bergenfield, New Jersey

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 16 Jun 2002 1:12 pm

Hiya Bob. I'm learning this stuff on the fly and there's so much to learn. You have a bunch more experience than me so it bums me to see you post this question because I just had this problem last week--rock gig too. In my case the stand was tiny I was practically sitting on my amp. I really needed to have the ampbehind me and closer to ear level but it wasn't an option--on the floor, two feet behind me. I got lucky--I was told that the mix was decent and I sounded ok.
But I've got to believe that close to ear level or tilted has got to be part of the answer.
Now I've got to stop picking up random telephones and saying "hello"---(yeah. my ears are ringing real good).

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 16 Jun 2002 1:28 pm

I do what Jon does. Someone once posted about placing two amps several feet behind you, and angled inwards toward you. Poster said it worked great for being able to hear yourself without playing too loud. Im looking forward to trying this with my Webb and classic 50/212. Ill bet it sounds good too.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 16 Jun 2002 2:18 pm

Steven , I work that way. It has to do with comfort for my own ears,a fat stereo-sound, not even loud, but big

, as well for the singers, so my playing is not in the way of their voice..
About playing loud: discuss this with your band.....
Ask yourself what brings joy in playing loud.. After 15 minutes your ears start to compress as a defence -mechanism, and you won't be able to definite what you hear, and others won't either, so they krank up the amps even more. Besides that: if you like a future as a musician: protect your ears..

regards, Johan
www.steeljj.com

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 16 Jun 2002 2:21 pm

Rock band? Beat them with their own weapons. Get a stack of Marshalls.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 16 Jun 2002 2:21 pm

Bob, I always have the Steel amp not to far behind me tilted back towards me. The same for the guitar amp. With the amps tilted back aiming towards me I never have a problem hearing myself, although I don't always like what I hear, but thats a different subject !
tp

Wayne Brown · Post by **Wayne Brown** » 16 Jun 2002 2:25 pm

this ones easy i have been trained by delta soundcraft and jbl...as a sound engineer ..and this happens so often...the answer is simple turn everything down on stage and let the pa do the work....in my band i can talk to you normally on stage while a song is going on...put the volume up front where it belongs...if the other members can't understand this ...it's there inexperience showing through....now with that said...if they won't turn down...here's another solution...your ears face mainly forward...turn your amp around and put it in front of you tilted back like a monitor...you won't need as much volume to here yourself...and if you can get the guitarist to do the same ...i promise he'll turn down to ...as he will think he's to loud...this is a frequent occuring problem in most bands ...but not in mine ...as i don't wish to be deaf by the time i'm 50...anyways try it

wayne[This message was edited by Wayne Brown on 16 June 2002 at 03:26 PM.]

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 16 Jun 2002 3:25 pm

I agree totally with Wayne. Getting the other band members to turn down will probably be next to impossible. Even if they start at a low volume, I'm sure after a few songs the volume war will be on!!

If the amps are miked, or if you can run from your line out into the board then putting your amp in front of you like Wayne said is the best thing you can do whether the others are loud or not. You will hear the true tone of the amp as everyone else (audience)is hearing it. Most player prefer the amp behind them I guess because thats the way it's always been done. I'm sure that comes from the days before PA's when the audience heard only the amps from the stage. Set it up at home behind you and then without changing any settings move it in front of you and angle it up toward your ears and you'll immediatly hear the difference!!

If you can't run through the board, then you'll need to place the amp in the best position for you and the audince to hear it. You are correct that getting it as close to ear level whether it be angled or elevated is the best you can do.

I use a Walker Stereo Steel amp and try to always put the speakers in front of me, angled up like a monitor. But whatever the situation these amps have plenty of power to go to war with the best of them!!

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 16 Jun 2002 4:28 pm

As I sit here typing, my ears are ringing very loud, and the doctor says
there's nothing I can do about it
except maybe kill the nerve and then
I'd be stone deaf. I'm getting
a hearing aid for my left ear
on the 21st of this month.
Where is this rant going?
Protect your ears while you can, my friend.
If it means quiting the band, it may be
sad choice in the short term, but in the long run, you'll be happy you did.
Believe me, tinnitus is not a pleasent ailment to have.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 16 Jun 2002 5:27 pm

Reply to my reply. I couldn't agree with Wayne more. If I had the room on a gig I would do just what he stated, put the amp in front of me and mic it or go thru the board, but generally there is not near enough room. Space at many times may dictate the playing conditions but that is a very good option.

tp

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Jun 2002 5:47 pm

Put your amp behind you (put it on a chair or something to get it off the floor), and then point the amp directly at the back of your head! This will contribute to deafness in the long run, but shucks...you'll be havin' a good time right now!

Perhaps...sometime down the road...in a few years, maybe...you will mature and discover that "LOUD MUSIC" isn't music at all...it's just noise. (I did.)

Oh, I kept up with that loud crap for a while, and then I finally came to the realization that our young "fans" (old people won't put up with shit noise like that) were only impressed by our volume. It didn't make any difference if we were in tune, or even all playin' in the same key! It was loud...they felt it...it was good. But in reality, it was junk. Crap geared to the kids, and the stupid kids ate it up. (Don't they always?)

I finally grew tired of it, though. I grew tired of havin' my ears ringing constantly. I grew tired of having speakers reconed, I grew tired of needing a truck just to haul my own amp and speakers. I grew tired of "wincing" every time the lead player took a ride, and every time the drummer hammered his cymbals with 2S sticks that looked more like chair-legs. In short, I grew up.

My fondest wish is that you do too.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 16 Jun 2002 6:07 pm

Get some professional ear molds from an audiologist. It brings the overall DB level down so that your ears can relax and differentiate what the sounds are on stage. Also you will save your own hearing.
They run around $120 with the checkup. Well worth it.

Donny,
At what age should all us steel players give up playing and grow up ? I can't wait to spend my golden years complaining on the internet instead wasting my time being a musician.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 16 June 2002 at 08:01 PM.]

Douglas Hudson · Post by **Douglas Hudson** » 16 Jun 2002 8:08 pm

Perhaps...sometime down the road...in a few years, maybe...you will mature and discover that "LOUD MUSIC" isn't music at all...it's just noise. (I did.)

I guess I am getting old,, but I discovered a long time ago that a band that plays loud usually is covering up their mistakes.. I wont play with a loud stage band. I have worked very hard to play the steel guitar and to lose it in loud music is a crime.. On the other side, if you cant play music with anyone else ,, I agree with Wayne.. Would really consult and audiologist and get good ear protection though. Being a steel guitarist will definatly change very soon when you cant hear what you play to tune with the rest of the group.

Bob Mainwaring · Post by **Bob Mainwaring** » 16 Jun 2002 8:55 pm

Hi there Bob,
For quite some time now I've placed my 400 on a seat directly behind me and have gone through the main frame (P.A.) system - no more problems - this is in a normal setting, Legions, Elks, Moose clubs etc.
The P.A. speakers are set up on stands so that no feedback spoils the mix. We very rarely have someone come along saying it's too loud.

Bob Mainwaring. Z.Bs. and other weird things.

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Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 17 Jun 2002 12:23 am

I use earmolds made by these guys:
http://www.earmold.com/

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 17 June 2002 at 01:36 AM.]

BobG · Post by **BobG** » 17 Jun 2002 4:02 am

We mike our amps and to keep the stage volume from interfering with the mains I place the amp in front of me angled and pointing directly at my head.
This gives the soundman more control out front and allows me to hear myself loud and clear.

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Bob Grado, Williams D10 (lefty), Peavey 1000,
Profex ll.

Wayne Brown · Post by **Wayne Brown** » 17 Jun 2002 5:27 am

ya but bob i've played those legions ,and clubs to ...in fact i did the moose with you ...and you know that if volume was a isue they would kick you out or never hire you back...

wayne

new carter sd-10 soon nashville 1000

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 17 Jun 2002 7:29 am

I have never been in a rock band, (very little hair at 74!) However, I had a nasty experience some 20 years ago. My wife and I belonged to a dance club and our instructer thought it would be 'cool' to dance to the real thing one evening instead of his records. We went to this club known for its western atmosphere. The place was jammed packed. We were seated stage left and I was under the loud and very large sound system speakers. When we left, I had a ringing in my ears which I thought would leave. It didn't! For some 20 years, this ringing has persisted...it's called tinitis...no cure. What pisses me off, I found the "note" I am hearing constantly...it's Ab ! Had it been A natural, I might have inherited a built-in tuner. Be wary all you loud volume freaks...that mega volume just ain't worth the permanent damage which can, (and eventually will) occure. Count on it!

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 17 Jun 2002 11:09 am

This topic came up on the Electronics forum, and was discussed in detail.

Most posters are have the right response: turn it down or use ear protection if plan A doesn't work.

I've had that volume problem more times than I care to remember in the past. It's usually a case of unprofessional musicians, in my opinion. ("Tell Neil Young that," I know, some will disagree.) The truth is, sounds systems have gotten much better over the years, but WAY louder. Too many sound techs think you have to use every last watt.

I always try to position myself at least 90 degrees from my amp, so it's pointed to one ear. This way, I'm always the loudest thing I hear onstage. This usually means turning about 45 degrees away from the front of the stage. I have stands for my amps that tilt them back about 45 degrees too. That is as good as setting it up on a chair or amp case. Most people mike their amps these days, not all, of course. Miking makes the situation easier to fix. I have set the amp in front of me pointing up like a vocal monitor. It works, but I have gotten compliants that the sound coming out of the back of the open back amp was too loud. I got rid of my N-ville 1000 and am currently using a rack rig with a closed back cabinet. I decided I didn't need nor did I want a 300 watt amp. My new setup is wonderful.

My last point is this: find a band that plays steel-friendly music, i.e. not too loud. Let those rockers deafen themselves. Most of the best shows I've heard were not loud.
--JR

Bob Miano · Post by **Bob Miano** » 18 Jun 2002 6:55 am

Thanks to all for your help & suggestions !!

Bob

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 18 Jun 2002 10:14 am

All of the above....

Many years back when we played too loud the customers let us know right away!

But now it seems with the fans, If it isn't loud , it is no good.

The musicians didn't change, the fans did. Now they like it loud!....al

Bob Hayes · Post by **Bob Hayes** » 18 Jun 2002 12:35 pm

I was used to playing in a high energy top 40 country/rock band. and also being around jet aircraft while in the Air Force for over 20 years..plus being in other loud areas..my hearin is much to be desired..So lately I get the "TURN IT DOWN"!!..I've placed my little Peavey Special that I use.(I used to lug around that big Peavey Special..)on a cahir or tilt it someon something and haveit facing Me from the front..away from the audince. It seems to work
Grouchyvet

Rex Blevins · Post by **Rex Blevins** » 21 Jun 2002 3:52 am

I agree to some extent with Bob Hoffnar, Ear molds/plugs are great and I have a pair. By the same token I just recently went to In Ear Monitors and could not be happier..I have always used a Session 400 and love that tone. BUT..I made the plunge to a set of IEM with my Evans pre-amp and can control ALL volume to me. I do realize I am fortunate and play with a band that utilizes a moniotr board, so unless I change my mix to me, it stays pretty constant in between gigs. My recommendation is either the Shure or Sennheiser units and I had Marty Garcia at Future Sonics make my molds. I can't say enough about Marty, he makes 'em for virtually everyone in the business...

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 21 Jun 2002 4:05 am

wow,if you`re playing with that Nash 1000 with your volume wide open be careful about your hearing.I never had to play quite that loud (even tho some gigs were prety loud)and now I got to the point where my ears hurt if there is too much music (read "noise")on the stage.I like to play nice music with the bands where you can hear everything and enjoy what you (and the rest of the band) do.Or maybe,I`m just getting old.

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http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne/damirzanne1.html

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 21 Jun 2002 12:00 pm

Try a pair of those yellow foam earplugs. No kidding-they filter out the drums and Les Paul man and let you hear much better. I've been using them for years when I play with loud bands.