Scales? What am I doing?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Nov 2005 3:11 pm

So as not to hijack another topic started by Bobby Lee on modes and scales, I decided to start my own. Admittedly, I'm "musically challenged" when it comes to scales and modes. My approach has always been to just play what fits and sounds good. Some of what I do is probably not far off, but I figure if I learn a little theory here (I guess that's what it is), it might help on my next session. Before I go on, let me say that I have the utmost respect for those who understand theory, and can play accordingly.

Now, John Steel posed these questions...

What's the second chord of "Take the A Train", and what would you play over it ?

To answer the first question, I really don't know. I play a lot of chords I can't name, going just by their sound. (Yeah, yeah, I know, that's kinda dumb, but go easy on me for once!

)

To answer the second question, no, I wouldn't just do "chicken-pickin" licks. Let's say the song is in "E" (for the sake of simplicity), and that I'm playing it on E9th. (Yeah, yeah, I know that's sacriligious in itself, but that's where I play it.) My own approach is "play what sounds like it fits", since the only scales I'm familiar with are of the bathroom type. So...I'd use 1/2 an "A" pedal, and then I'd play arpegggios (I think that's the term) and rolls using everything but the 2nd string.

No, I don't know what all the notes are, but they do sound "okay" to me.

Now, my questions are...

What am I doing, exactly?
Is it right or wrong?
Is this a scale, or a mode, or just a bunch of clams?

Maybe John Steele, Bobby Lee, Jeff Lampert, Bob Hoffnar, David Doggett, (or anyone else), can give me some pointers.

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 30 Nov 2005 3:26 pm

Donny,

With that half A pedal, you're making an augmented chord there, which leads to the third chord of the tune, which is the IV chord.

So you're going I - Iaug - IV, which is a musically powerful change and very useful.

I'd call it "chord motion" or "voice leading", rather than a particular mode.

-GV[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 30 November 2005 at 03:27 PM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 30 Nov 2005 7:48 pm

Donny, I too am a musical misfit, and stangely find myself associated with your every word. I'm looking forward to the answers these cats can put on us. I've always admired the musical competents but I guess I was always too busy to take the time to avail myself of the all the knowledge necessary to do things properly in the music field.

Just grab a root and growl has been my attitude, but in my later life wisdom prevails and I would like to learn the basics.
Phred

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 30 Nov 2005 8:41 pm

According to a chord chart I dug up on the internet (to check myself!), that second chord in A Train is a 2 flat 5, and your 1 aug lays over it nicely, and also adds a 7th.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 30 November 2005 at 11:52 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 1 Dec 2005 7:26 am

Basically look at your arpegios and understand what order you are playing the notes in.

Slow it down, then write it out slowly with note names little by little.
Then look at it as (I IV V II VI I II Etc for each chord you are playing it over.

What ever you actualy are playing.

This analysis wil let you SEE the logic
YOU already use in this situation.
Map it out and you might really notice something about your style.
And this will likely lead to you ADDING to YOUR style.
[ Gee I am doing that, and I could ALSO do THIS.. HUH, cool!]

Try it and get back to us.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Dec 2005 10:07 am

Donny, you're doing good. Like most of us steelers, you think more in chords than scales. My jazz fake book calls for a II7 b5 as the second chord of A Train. You played a I aug. Those chords share several notes and work pretty good together. If you play both chords over each other I hear a whole tone scale (think Debussy). And when I look at the two chords on the piano, I see whole step intervals being played. In fact, an augmented chord is simply a whole tone scale with every-other note left out. So both II7 b5 and augmented chords are related to a whole tone scale. That tells me that a little practicing of whole tone scales will give me some easy licks that will fit anytime I hear that sound.

Going back to the chord thinking, knowing that you are playing a I aug. tells you that you can get an augmented another way at other frets, such as AB pedals and F lever, and that position might lead to something different than you can get at the half-A pedal position. Likewise, there are more than one ways to get a II7 b5, and those positions might also lead to something interesting.

The bottom line is that chords and scales and modes are related. They have the same "sound." If you find a chord that sounds good, knowing the scale or mode related to the chord will give you melody and lick ideas. I don't know enough of these relationships and scales/modes to do much with this now. But I can see how a little knowledge could help me go beyond the rut I get in with the chords I now play by ear.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 1 Dec 2005 12:06 pm

Here's an attempt at the tab for what I'd be doing over that II7b5 change in A-Train...

<tab>
** 1 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
-1---------------|--------0---0----|-------
-2---------------|----------------0|--------
-3---------------|----------0---0--|--------
-4---------------|-------0---------|-------
-5---------------|----0------------|--------
-6------------0-|--0--------------|--------
-7----------0----|-----------------|--------
-8--------0------|-----------------|--------
-9------0--------|-----------------|--------
10----0---------|-----------------|--------
</tab>
Once again (remember this is my first attempt at tab), I'm playing all open strings and just holding a 1/2 "A" pedal for these two measures. (I tried to get the time values in there, too!)

So, I guess I'm playing an Eaug+7+9, or is that called an E+add7add9?

I suppose there's also some partial modes there too? [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 01 December 2005 at 12:40 PM.]

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 1 Dec 2005 2:01 pm

Wow.

First the Berlin Wall, and now this!

The second chord in "A Train" is usually listed as "D7b5". It was written originally in the key of "C", by Billy Strayhorn.

Although you hear alot about the b5 chord, trademark of the beboppers, etc., but later theoretical thinking gave way to the fact that the particular note (Ab or G#) was not really a b5, but a raised 4th.
Because the chord may contain notes about that (7th, 9th, 13th, etc.) it is officially known in modern circles as
D7#11

The proof is in the pudding; if you listen to Ellington's band play this piece, listen to the trumpet solo, when he trades fours with the orchestra. In the 7th bar of the chorus, the trumpeter (Ray Nance) lands squarely on the 5th. It is there, and quite intact. He also makes liberal use of the #11 note.

With regard to modes, everything you really need to know is contained within three scales: the major scale, the melodic minor scale, and the diminished scale.
This particular chord, the 7#11 chord, is derived from the 4th (lydian) mode of the melodic minor scale. In the case of D7#11, it comes from the A minor melodic scale.
Every chord is a scale, and vice versa.

So, from D to D, the scale (containing the notes from the A melodic minor scale) would run like this:
D E F# G# A B C D

How you look at it is up to you. When I run across a 7#11 chord, my brain says "That comes from the melodic minor a 5th away".

So, Donny, if you want to play it in E, then the chord in F#7#11. It comes from the C# minor melodic scale.

Although some might think this is an obscure chord, you'll hear it not only in "A Train", but in "Laura", "Night in Tunisia", and dozens of other tunes. During the Christmas season, you'll hear string orchestras make liberal use of this chord when backing up singers doing carols.

I'll stop now, because I have to pack up for a gig. Yes, some of us guys that read books actually gig too !

-John

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