Has playing steel guitar ruined my brain?

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 5 Aug 2005 12:48 pm

I have been fiddling around and around with various infinitesimal little tuning-chart tweaks lately, trying to get something that sounds right for that pesky P5+6, flat the A's chord in C6th. In a completely unrelated moment, I was working in my bedroom and I had "Sketches of Spain" by Miles Davis playing in the background. Towards the end of the second version of Concierto de Aranjuez, Miles sneaks out a series of clinkers that were so far out of tune I almost fell out of the chair. I listened to it again just in case a spider crawled in my ear or something, and they still sounded way, way out, like he busted a valve on his trumpet.

Now, I know Miles Davis is a genius, and I know Sketches of Spain is a masterpiece, and I know that little grubs like me aren't supposed to pee on the statues in Hero's Park, but how has he gotten away with this for all these years? I mean, this is my fault for trying to tune a steel guitar, isn't it? I've mutated, man... will it go away if I listen to a bunch of sloppy drunken blues or mariachi music or something? This is spooky...

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 5 Aug 2005 1:10 pm

Because he could.

There were a lot of flat notes in that Live at the Fillmore/Bitches Brew era.

In my memory, it never seemed like anyone was ever held to intonational accountablity like a steeler. I've already been told to not play steel because the fiddle player couldn't play a song on key.
[This message was edited by Webb Kline on 05 August 2005 at 02:17 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 5 Aug 2005 1:20 pm

David - perhaps the answer is 'yes', but you're not alone - it sometimes has the same effect on me. I recommend regular fortifying doses of nice sloppy blues, greasy jazz, and soulfully caterwauling hillbilly music to clear the cobwebs out and get back in touch with reality. A little grease is good for you.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 5 Aug 2005 1:23 pm

Victor Borge got away with it for years, and it always sounded beautiful.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 5 Aug 2005 1:33 pm

I always thought that those "out-of-tune" notes were the point of "Sketches of Spain". Miles broke new ground by saying, in essence, that the entire spectrum of pitches was fair game for improvisation.

It was a radical concept at the time (I've been told). Trumpet players spent years perfecting their sense of pitch, and Miles comes in saying "that doesn't matter". He had been there, done that with the best, and found that something outside cummunicated his message better than the "perfection" of the 12-tone scale.

When Miles turned his back on the audience, it only made a lot of us listen more intently. He was a true artist.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2005 1:57 pm

Funny thing, speaking of Mariachi music. When I first heard some of that kind of music on my shortwave radio years ago, I thought it sounded horrible, so out of tune. I wondered how anyone could stand it.

Actually, it's not Mariachi music that's so far out of tune, but what they call Banda, the almost all brass stuff you hear that sounds like German polka music fused with a little Latin influence, which is precisely what it is... is more out of tune. I still haven't found out if they want it to sound that way, or if they just don't tune that well, figure it's close enough and that is the result.

Anyway, it used to drive me nuts. I have an extremely good ear for pitch, and yes I know I still get a little bit out now and then myself.

After being here for 20 months and hearing lots of this music, believe it or not the out-of-tuneness is starting to sound better. I don't mean I don't notice it anymore, but I can hear the musicality of it now where I couldn't before.

I even shocked myself the other day when I heard some banda-type song begin with the typical brass section, out of tune by American standards, and it really caught my ear. It wasn't really far out, just enough, and I thought it sounded really nice.

This leads me to believe that more than anything, it's all what you're used to. In America we're used to everything being as close as possible to our tuning system, so anything else sounds bad to us.

My sense of pitch is as good as ever, hearing this music hasn't rotted my sense of pitch, only expanded it.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 05 August 2005 at 02:59 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 5 Aug 2005 3:12 pm

Folk music is one thing; Miles is another.

I love mariachi music; a good grupo had good intonation. Singers are frequently sharp, but it's folk music.

Sketches of Spain shares some of those folk roots; maybe that's why Miles liked what he did. With Gil Evans orchestration, you can get by with dissonance, even if it's not dissonant to me. B0b is right, he's an artist. He could do no wrong by me.

He was more in tune with his ensembles earlier on.
Nat Hentoff said his tone was something like 'a child crying in a closet.'
Crying isn't always in tune.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 Aug 2005 3:53 pm

I'm aware folk music is not Miles Davis.

I was attempting to address the subject of tones outside our 12-tone scale in general relating to the American ear not used to hearing them, and David mentioned Mariachi and "drunken blues" in his original post, so I thought that made it relevant.

I thought that my statement, "This leads me to believe that more than anything, it's all what you're used to. In America we're used to everything being as close as possible to our tuning system, so anything else sounds bad to us." - applied to any kind of music with tones outside the 12-tone system. Doesn't it?
[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 05 August 2005 at 05:26 PM.]

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 5 Aug 2005 4:16 pm

Jim, I totally agree with your "it's what you grew up with" comment. Certain harmony intervals are universal, determined by physics, but what's in between is man made.

I always thought it was narrow-minded for people to critize tuning and pitch, when they don't understand the music.

I suspect folks growing up listening to Marichi Music might think our pop music is out of tune.

FWIW, Miles never appealed to me. Probably his music was over my head. I do like some strange stuff, but Miles' work never spoke to me.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 6 Aug 2005 1:33 am

I've always liked and admired Miles Davis, particularly his late 50's band with Cannonball Adderly and John Coltrane, his late 60's ensemble that produced "In a Silent Way" and "Bitches Brew" - these two are on my desert island list for sure; and his 80's group with Mike Stern and John Scofield on guitars.

I understand and admire the idea of "creative intonation", as it was referred to regarding Pablo Casals. Mein gott im himmel, I listen to Indian music, nuff said.

The notes on Sketches of Spain that seem really sour to me are all really soft, I think maybe a trumpeter is better able to sharp or flat notes when he's got some volume behind them? I don't know exactly about the construction of a trumpet as it related to that particular key, but the valves modify "natural" tones and the combinations change for every key - you can't just slide the bar up a fret

. It almost sounds like there were a few notes that just couldn't be played in tune that softly, but he wanted them so bad he stuck them in there anyway. Listen to the CD, it's the "bonus" second version of the Concierto de Aranjuez.

(The same notes aren't there on the first version that starts the album, which was recorded on a different day - maybe he talked to a steel guitarist about tuning in between them, crash, sizz, burn....

)[This message was edited by David Mason on 06 August 2005 at 02:57 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 6 Aug 2005 4:06 am

Sure didn't mean to be dismissive or contrary, Jim. I agree with your thesis, was just applying my take on Miles and mariachis (or banda, a term I haven't heard before).

I don't call either dissonant, and don't think of them as outside the twelve-tone structure, as you can divide an octave many ways (as witnessed by the ET JI topics).

I guess I have a casual approach to music; sometimes it's folky and not quite on pitch, but I think that's OK. I grew up hearing everything 'on key,' but there are so many styles of playing in the world that I couldn't help but appreciate all the different scales (which are based in many cases on different interpretations of the harmonic system, particularly when it comes to the 7th harmonic, which lies between the ET sixth and flatted seventh.)

And Miles--I think he was just hearing the scale in a different way. I enjoy the off-color notes. They're just a different tone color, to me.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Aug 2005 5:40 am

...it's what you grew up with...

Yes. I've heard it's the same with eating insects.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 6 Aug 2005 6:25 am

Webb Kline wrote, "I've already been told not to play steel because the fiddle player couldn't play a song on key." THAT is the (unintentionally) funniest thing I have ever heard! Thanks, Webb ....

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 6 Aug 2005 11:11 am

"I've already been told not to play steel because the fiddle player couldn't play a song on key."

I'm pretty sure I've worked with that guy.