Chord theory?

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 5 May 2005 4:49 pm

I play strictly by ear. I couldn't tell you one single note I'm hittin. I know all my major chords and the sevenths, and minors that go with them. How helpful is it to learn chord theory, and the notes that make up the chords etc. Will it actually help your steel playin to know all this stuff?
If so, then I'd like to start studying it.
any place on the web to learn this stuff free of charge? Or is there any courses you can buy that teaches this stuff?

terry

------------------
Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 5 May 2005 5:15 pm

I'm always amazed when I hear of players who don't know the names of the notes. I know that it's possible, because I've heard some very good self-taught players who have no words for what they do. But it seems to me that you have done it the hard way.

I think the best way to learn more is to bang away at a piano keyboard. There are some really good deals from Yamaha, Casio, etc. Yamaha PSR series start under $100, and some of them include built-in "Educational" software for adult beginners.

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 5 May 2005 5:31 pm

Terry, looknohands.com is a great place to start. Go to the piano section, because it is much easier to develop an understanding of chord theory by looking at a keyboard. It simply is a better visual aid than a steel or 6 string. On looknohands, you can then go over to the guitar section and see how it all related to guitar. The scale sections are really great too. My improv students use that site a lot. I get plently of great new ideas from it myself.

I fumbled around at it for many years until finally had to learn it about 10 years ago in order to get some new session work. It transformed my playing on all of my instruments. You'll never regret it and it isn't nearly as difficult as we make it out to be.

Howard Tate · Post by **Howard Tate** » 5 May 2005 6:20 pm

Webb, that's a very good site, thanks for the link. Many years ago you could buy those little theory workbooks at any music store, I don't know if the same type thing is still around. They taught basic theory, not aimed at any instrument, good to learn. I also recommend that if there is a real problem learning to read, check out solfeggio notation as in hymnals. It may make it easier to learn melodies. Just my own idea.

------------------
Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum S12U, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3
http://www.Charmedmusic.com

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 5 May 2005 9:58 pm

Right here in the forum FAQ in feedback ,
look for C6 Threadzilla
and the links to Denny Turners site.

This is theory directly applied to the steel.
But a WHOLE lot more.

Believe me you will learn a TON there,
and take it one bite at a time,
and apply it in a practical way,
then take another.

It is based for the very logical 6 string C6 tuning, but once that makes some sense, it will be clearer on all instruments.
IF you don't have a D-10 back neck, just tune a 6 string to C6 and work on things, and then move the idea to E9 and compare notes by sound and tuner window if neccesary.

An increadible resource, and it really improved my playing.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 07 May 2005 at 10:17 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 6 May 2005 2:32 am

Terry, i like many learned the hard way which in turn did develop my ear
playin' by the seat of my pants was ok when i was young & foolish
it was inevitable that i would learn chord theory thnaks to the people i played with.
Chord Theory, or Musik Theory for that matter, is a written language just like the ABCs you learned in school.
the sooner you learn it the easier it will be to play share & play Musik w: others
it will also help your ear indentify the tones, notes, or chords.
it's indispensable to know what your playin'

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 6 May 2005 5:07 am

Hey Terry- my advice with the theory stuff is just to go slow, and don't let it make you feel dumb if you don't get a certain concept- just don't plow ahead until you understand the basics. There's a lot of lingo, almost like legaleze, but if you get it explained well, it should all be logical, makes sense, and most of all relate to what it is you can already do and hear as a player.

If you like, you can always email me with specific questions and I will try to explain in as simple and clear a way as possible. I teach this stuff all the time and really enjoy it, but I remember when I learned it, I was running on faith for about three months, until the skies parted and the big "AHA!" moment came- which is really worth working for!

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 6 May 2005 7:56 am

And don't we all live for those AHA moments!

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 May 2005 at 12:05 PM.]

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 7 May 2005 9:08 am

Thanks for all the info guys.
and thanks John for the offer. I might just be e-mailing you.

Terry

------------------
Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 7 May 2005 12:31 pm

Terry, I really recommend learning the Number System as it relates to music theory and song construction. There are some books available as well as some forum posts with lots of info. The truth is, whether we know we're doing it or not, we all use it anyway, so might as well make the most of what we know and expand our horizons. What I mean, for example, when someone is playing G at the tenth fret, going back to a C chord, and they think "here's where I can use that slide down two frets and hit the 'D' lever move"... they're actually playing a G to G7 leading to the C. That's one lick. But putting it into music theory terms, moving from a G to a C anytime in a progression, as a I to IV chord, or V back to I, any kind of a seventh chord can be used.. (or any time a static 7th is needed, like in a blues tune). A little exploring with seventh chords and you have hundreds of licks from just the one idea. It's a little slow going at first, but theory study can be immensely enjoyable, and will do more for your playing than just about anything you can do.

------------------
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 7 May 2005 10:52 pm

To amplify Mark's post a bit.

Theory will show you correct choices for the chords
in between G and C, as you slide down.
Not just slide until G is now C.

If you think of these interim chords in the key,
as several parallel lines of melody moving at once,

then you will see that knowing the RIGHT chords
to put in between the G and C will give you
MANY possible melodies to pick as you move
between those G & C chords.

And chances are ALL the notes will work right.

Another great thing in Denny's site is his work on chord substitutions.
Theory will help you find new positions to play
music from not just make it easier to play quickly with others.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 08 May 2005 at 03:17 AM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 8 May 2005 6:28 am

I don't have the credentials as a musician like most here.

I took a basic theory and an intermediate theory course last year at a local adult educational center.

It's amazing how just knowing a little theory can open doors. It's like being given a mental road map. Once you know interval relationships, you can build any chord.

Yes, the keyboard is the most important tool.

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 8 May 2005 7:03 am

Mark, I know the basics on the Number system. Like playin in C, C would be the 1 chord, F the IV G the V and D the II chord.I know there's much more to it than that though. Like where I get confused is when I hear a steel player tell the band 55 11. I think that means the band plays a V chord, a V chord and a I chord and another I. But all that gets confusing when you have to figure in intervals, beats and stuff. I need to go a lot deeper into the number system also.
I've tried to get our church band to learn the number system. I mean just the basic I II IV and V would help, but they've always called out the chord names, and they don't want to change.

I have Winnie's Book which has a basic chord theory section, and I have Fretboard roadmaps I ordered for my 6 string that teachs basic chord theory. I'm goin to print off Denny's stuff when I can get a carthridge for my printer.
Terry

------------------
Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 8 May 2005 7:12 am

This is about all I know when it comes to chord theory or scales. I've learned this from Fretboard roadmaps. The major scale of C is C D EF G A BC. and I know EF and BC are half steps and the rest are whole steps.
where can I find the rest of the major scales as far as the notes that make them up>

terry

------------------
Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 8 May 2005 8:28 am

Terry look at it this way
<pre>
I____II___III__IV____V___VI____VII__I
C_____D____E___F_____G____A_____B___C
D_____E____F#__G_____A____B_____C#__D .....2 sharps

F____G____A___Bb____C____D_____E___F..... 2 flats

Ab___Bb____C___Db____Eb___F____G__Ab.... 5 flats
</pre>

Keep the major scale 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 spacing,
now you finish the cycle.
Try Bb now.

You decide if the closest consecutive note name is either sharp or flat.
( this is also how you decide if it is named Ab or G#...it's Ab)

If you must go up in pitch to make the same pitch change ratio,
then it is a # key

If you must go flat to make the pitch ratio,
it is a b key.

Then try it as a minor 7 key
So flat 3 and flat 7, same drill.

Do the cycle
hint
<pre>
C____D___Eb___F____G____A___Bb___C
---2---1----2---2----2---1----2---
</pre>
Now look for an almost complete note match
with another key in your major key list.
That means it is the "relative minor chord"
of that other major scale.

When you find the relationship, you will then understand why.

The try this baby
a Minor7b5 scale (not the arpegio)

C--D--Eb--F--Gb--A---Bb--C
(Some would say flat the 6th also)

Finish out the cycle.

The look for where one of these babys matches your major and minor note lists.

DD

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 10 May 2005 at 02:06 PM.]

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 8 May 2005 12:21 pm

David, C-D-Eb-F-Gb-A-Bb-C is not a diminshed scale, or a diminished one either.
A diminished scale consists of alternate tone and half tone steps.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 8 May 2005 1:14 pm

Sorry, asleep
a Minor7b5
( Or half diminished in some circles)
edited above

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 8 May 2005 2:12 pm

Keep the major scale 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 spacing,

David, I stumped already. what do you mean 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 spacing.

How did you get the D scale? and how did you know to add the F# in the D scale?

I think I'm goin to have to do some studying on this.

Terry

------------------
Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 8 May 2005 2:41 pm

Wait, I think I understand the 2 2 1 2 2 2 1

That would be a whole whole 1/2 and then a whole whole whole 1/2 step or frets right?

am I close David?

Terry

------------------
Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 8 May 2005 9:11 pm

Yes there ya go.

A half step is a one note difference, but a whole step is a 2 note difference.

Figure out things in C which normally has no sharps or flats.

C minor will have 2 flata the 3rd and the 7th.
Keep looking for thos interactive relation ships.

Make a grid an lay the notes out on that.
And maybe have a guitar at hand to test things.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 08 May 2005 at 10:12 PM.]

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 9 May 2005 9:28 am

Thanks David, I'll keep working on this and maybe one day It will sink in.

Terry

------------------
Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

Alan Shank · Post by **Alan Shank** » 9 May 2005 12:44 pm

"Figure out things in C which normally has no sharps or flats.

C minor will have 2 flata the 3rd and the 7th."

No, it will have 3 flats, Eb, Ab and Bb. A minor key flats three notes relative to the same major key. That is, sharps become natural and naturals become flat.

The order is:
C no sharps or flats
F one flat (Bb)
Bb two flats (Bb and Eb)
etc.
The flat keys go around a circle of fourths, and the next key is the last flat added. (So, the next key is Eb, which adds Ab, etc.)
Going in the other direction:
G one sharp (F#)
D two sharps (F# and C#)
A three sharps (F#, C# and G#)
the sharp keys go around a circle of fifths, and the next sharp added is a fifth above the last)

You can see where this all comes from if you apply the pattern of a major scale, WWHWWWH, or 2212221, to any starting note:

take E
a whole step from E is F#
a whole step from F# is G#
a half step from G# is A
a whole step from A is B
a whole step from B is C#
a whole step from C# is D#
a half step from D# is E

All you have to know is that there is only a half step between E and F and between B and C, and you can figure out any scale, given the intervals between the notes.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 9 May 2005 7:30 pm

Thanks Allen. I'm catching on it's just takin me a while.
You said a minor has a flated 3rd and flatted 7th. would that be called a minor 7th. I though a plain minor chord just had the third note of the scale flatted.
Terry

------------------
Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 9 May 2005 11:31 pm

Yes a basic minor triad is only I, bIII, V
but in the practical world 7ths get used all the time.
When they are minor it is a bVII.

And for purposes of understanding the whole octave it is best to
look at all the scale degrees with in the octave.

Now it gets trickier when you look at the line of
IIIrds melody in a chord pattern.

and then the 5ths

We often look at a bass line as the roots of the chords.
But it can also be a simple melody.
and the IIIrd line another melody the same for the 5th and the 7th(VI, bVII too)

If you play 8 4 note chords from a key, there are 4 separate melody lines happening in perfect lockstep.

So one intersting excersise is to
write down a song you like in chord names.
spell out the chords notes individualy
then pull out each single note line of roots, IIIrds, 5ths and 7ths( 6ths maj7ths ) and then play each line .

This often gives you some insight into WHY those notes work.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 10 May 2005 at 04:44 AM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 10 May 2005 3:35 am

To clarify a typo in David's posting above, before anyone gets misled, he MEANT to write, in the first line that the basic minor triad is:
I, bIII, (NOT bII !!) and V[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 10 May 2005 at 04:36 AM.]