Art Rock

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Mar 2005 1:34 pm

I stumbled upon this interesting article entirely by accident.
http://yesworld.com/ctte_covach/Close_to_the_Edge.html

I've never really enjoyed art rock, even though I'm a classical music fan. I can't explain why - there's just something about it that annoys me.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Peter Siegel · Post by **Peter Siegel** » 16 Mar 2005 2:03 pm

"I've never really enjoyed art rock, even though I'm a classical music fan. I can't explain why - there's just something about it that annoys me."

Bob,
Well, maybe that's because it ain't art, and it ain't rock. In my sarcastic moments I call that stuff "Pretension Rock."
Not my cup of tea either.

-Peter[This message was edited by Peter Siegel on 16 March 2005 at 02:05 PM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 16 Mar 2005 3:05 pm

I used to love "Close to the Edge" when I was about 14 years old, and the more boo I smoked the better it got. I tried to read that guy's scholarly analysis of it all these years later, but I haven't smoked boo in many, many moons now and I think I'd need some to understand what the heck he was talking about. Maybe, a lot of it.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Mar 2005 5:18 pm

Funny how there's no mention of the English band Sky which included classical guitarist John Williams. Sky did an LP called "The Mozart Album" which proved to me beyond a doubt that Mozart would have felt right a home writing for rock instruments - including drums! There was no pretension - these were real classical musicians rockin out.

Sky never really made much of a splash though. I guess they were a little too real for the hip generation...

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)[This message was edited by b0b on 16 March 2005 at 05:23 PM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 17 Mar 2005 12:23 am

I absolutely had to dig out "Close to the Edge" this morning and give it a spin, and dude, it rocks. I think maybe Yes's great downfall was precipitated when they actually published the lyrics to "Close to the Edge" in the liner notes. It's one thing to consider yourself to be the spiritual heir to Beethoven and Stravinsky, Coleridge and Rimbaud; it's another thing entirely to let people actually read your lyrics.

From "Siberian Khatru":
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>outbound, river,
Hold out the morning that comes into view. bluetail, tailfly.
River running right over the outboard, river,
Bluetail, tailfly,
Luther, in time.
Dood’ndoodit, dah, d’t-d’t-dah.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then, later on, after some energetic roaring and thrashing about (these boys really could play the bejeebers out of their instruments), they return to the river, outboard and bluefly themes:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>River running right on over,
Then over my head. outboard, river.
Bluetail, tailfly,
Luther, in time,
Suntower, asking,
Cover, lover,
June cast, moon fast,
As one changes,
Heart gold, leaver,
Soul mark, mover,
Christian, changer,
Called out, saviour,
Moon gate, climber,
Turn round, glider.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In my exuberant, impaired youth I used to have some vague notion that this song was about spirituality and salvation and stuff, but now it appears to be about flyfishing? In SIBERIA?!?

Gosh, all these years I could have been a rock lyric analyst, instead of working for a living....

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 18 Mar 2005 8:59 am

I can offer no defense of Art Rock as a genre, but I feel like I have to step in here...

YES is the band that exposed me to pedal steel guitar as a kid. Steve Howe was very creative in his use of his Fender laps and his Sho~Bud. I might never have found the steel guitar had it not been for YES. YES music is what got me interested in country music.

"Art Rock" is a term invented by critics after the event. The guys in YES were just making the music that came naturally to them --and still are, by the way. They didn't get together when they formed the band and say "Let's make Art Rock!". The Beatles had just broken up and anything seemed possible in music, so you got some funny sounding music. Hence, YES. I wish popular music was as wide-open today as it was back in the early 70's when kids were actually falling over themselves to go out and see adventurous bands.

Jon Anderson, who wrote the words cited above (out of context) was more interested in the way the words SOUNDED WITH THE MUSIC than in their literal meaning. The lyrics don't attempt to tell you a story; they're more like phrasing guidelines for the human voice, which in YES was treated as another melody instrument. Sure it was a mistake to print them on the sleeve! YES has never been afraid of mistakes!

Man these guys have gotten the shaft for so many years and are STILL misunderstood as some sort of classical-meets-rock thing. They were just being musically adventurous at a time when that was accepted in pop music. I wonder when people will start appreciating YES records. I guess someone in the band has to die first, which is really a shame.

OK off soapbox!

-YES apologist in L.A.[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 18 March 2005 at 09:00 AM.][This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 18 March 2005 at 09:01 AM.][This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 18 March 2005 at 09:52 AM.]

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 18 Mar 2005 10:09 am

Oh, I thought we were talking about Kid Rock's little brother Arthur.

When I was a wee sprout I used to WORSHIP at the church of Yes. Every once in a blue moon I'll still bust out "Fragile" or "Close to the Edge" for a spin...but I'd never do it in public!

They did get a tad bit self indulgent once in a while though

.

Henry Nagle · Post by **Henry Nagle** » 18 Mar 2005 10:17 pm

What about math rock? Has anybody experienced this genre?

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 19 Mar 2005 5:15 am

Math Rock + Art Rock=?

Working on a ditty 'bout a 18th Century mathematician - called the "Squire of High~Potternews"

National Lampoon had an album back in the '70's called "Goodbye Pop" with a cut by Christopher Guest called "Art Rock Suite" that pretty much skewered the genre

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 19 Mar 2005 5:16 am

One thing for sure- we can't all invent new genres of music, but we ALL can criticize them!

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Mar 2005 3:23 pm

I wish popular music was as wide-open today as it was back in the early 70's when kids were actually falling over themselves to go out and see adventurous bands.

I like Radiohead. Do they count?

Henry Nagle · Post by **Henry Nagle** » 19 Mar 2005 5:39 pm

Wilco are great. They do a great job combining new and adventurous with old and familiar (comfortable).

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 30 Mar 2005 8:28 am

b0b,

Have you ever sat down and listened to Close to the Edge, the album in question?

I'd be interested to hear what you think of it. Forget about comparing it to "classical" music. That misses the point entirely, as does the article in the link.

Four out of the five members of the band that made that record were entirely self-taught. They were not some product of the music schools. They did not write this stuff out on staff paper and do analysis of the vertical harmony. They were just five groovy 70's pop musicians, all in their 20's, making wildly adventurous music that happened to push the boundaries of rock-n-roll outward.

Give it a listen --it's fun!

-GV

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 30 Mar 2005 8:40 am

...and the live versions on "Yessongs" smoke the studio versions for energy- seeing as they were composing bit-by-bit and recording/editing as they went...once the tunes were recorded, THEN they rehearsed live versions and ripped it up.

Check the live "Siberian Khatru" guitar solo- that, to me, is a real masterpiece...not to mention the amazing country and jazz influences on the studio "America" and Yessongs "Perpetual Change"...now THAT is versatility and expressive guitar playing!

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 30 Mar 2005 9:02 am

Yeah John, YES is a LIVE band for sure! That live version of "Perpetual Change" is transcendent!

Yessongs, although it sounds like it was recorded in a gymnasium, is one of the most exciting live albums I've heard --right next to Jimmie Rivers & Vance Terry's Brisbane Bop.

The solo in "America" is like Steve Howe's tribute to all the American jazz & country guitarists he idolized in his youth. I love that solo! What do you think Paul Simon thinks?

-GV[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 30 March 2005 at 09:04 AM.][This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 30 March 2005 at 09:09 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 30 Mar 2005 7:49 pm

As I said, I can't explain why I don't like Yes, Genesis, et. al. I know that the music contains all of the elements that I normally enjoy, but I have a hard time relating to it. I don't hear the soul of it for some reason. It tends to annoy me.

It's like Harry Partch. I can read about Partch and nod along. I agree with just about everything he wrote in his book and I can see that his instruments are extraordinary works of art, but his music doesn't move me at all. I can't hear the soul of it.

I'm not putting them down. I think it's because of my background. I just can't relate to certain forms of music at all.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 31 Mar 2005 12:39 am

Yes sounded much more melodic when Trevor Rabin joined the band. Songs like 'Owner Of A Lonely Heart' and 'Leave It' deviate from the 'art rock' format slightly.

The only thing I found fascinating about Steve Howe's contribution to the band was when he played the laud (pronounced 'la ood'), a Spanish 12 string flat back lute with steel strings. The laud is featured on the song 'Your Move'.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 31 Mar 2005 3:25 am

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wish popular music was as wide-open today as it was back in the early 70's when kids were actually falling over themselves to go out and see adventurous bands.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whaaa?

The Melvins, McClusky, Franz Ferdinand, The Datsuns, MuM, Venomous Concept, The Handsome Family, The Kings Of Leon, Mars Volta, Kaada, Detroit Cobras, White Stripes, The Bambi Molesters, Peaches, the Dirtbombs, Devandra Barhart, Iron & Wine, Royal Chord, Calexico, Fantomas, Tommahawk, The Darkness, the Vanduras, Mojave 3, Biffy Cyclo, Beck, the Flaming Lips, Polyphonic Spree, Blur, the Dirty Three, Dallas Crane, Spiritualised, Jon Spencer Blues Explosion, the Humpers, the Mark Lanegan Band, Black Box Recorder, Grand Popo Football Club, Le Tigre, the Nation Blue, Ween, Lemon Jelly, Young Heart Attack, Nekko Case, The Go! Team, the Waifs, Willard Grant Conspiracy, the Mendoza Line, Wilco, The Streets, Aphex Twin, Spiderbait, Boris, Coldplay, Grandaddy, etc.. these are touring acts of all sorts of styles and yes.. 'kids' go and see them.

I live in Australia and we have bands here all the time, they tour from the US, UK.. and they do play their home countries.
I'm pretty sure there's people at these shows.

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 31 Mar 2005 10:27 am

Jason,

Great list! However, with the possible exception of White Stripes, Wilco & Beck, none of those bands enjoy anything near the wild popularity of a band like Yes in their heyday. Yes were played regularly on FM AND AM radio here in the states, and performed in arenas & stadiums with huge productions. I've attended performances by bands like the Polyphonic Spree & Mojave 3 here in giant Los Angeles, and those shows occur in small clubs.

It just strikes me that, in the 70's, the "mainstream" was a lot more adventurous, and daring seemed to be rewarded --even expected. I in no way meant to suggest that wonderful, adventurous bands do not still exist in number. (I'd like to think I'm in one.)

-GV [This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 31 March 2005 at 10:31 AM.][This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 31 March 2005 at 10:31 AM.][This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 31 March 2005 at 10:33 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 31 Mar 2005 11:01 am

It's out there, but you will never here it on the radio the way you did in the late '60s and early '70s, when they played "album rock" on FM stations. Even the local college radio station (WXPN) mostly plays lame singer-songwriter stuff, and rarely if ever plays really innovative and cross-genre stuff, except for a night-time program called "Echos" that plays some ethereal New Age stuff.

I've always liked some of the so called art rock. I also like classical jazz, such as the Modern Jazz Quartet, and mixes of eastern music and jazz and rock. But I admit I listened to a lot more of that kind of stuff back in my student and underemployed days when we would sit around late into the night doing sex, drugs and rock'n'roll...and, um, art rock.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 31 Mar 2005 12:55 pm

Leslie, according to Steve, that's a Portugese guitar- he misnamed in "Vachalia" or something in the liner notes, said his sister brought it back for him...

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 1 Apr 2005 7:06 am

>>
It just strikes me that, in the 70's, the "mainstream" was a lot more adventurous, and daring seemed to be rewarded --even expected. I in no way meant to suggest that wonderful, adventurous bands do not still exist in number.
>>

Hi Greg, yes I understand that, but Yes, like the White Stripes and Beck, enjoyed a certain amount of success, while a good thirty or so better prog bands (okay.. that's my opinion, that pretty much every German 'Kraut-rock' band was better than Yes), they were a hit band.
What about Nektar?.. geez the Stooges and the Velvet Underground are bigger than cult bands now, even more than when the punk crowd claimed them in the 1970s.
Yet, these guys could hardly sell in the 1960s.

Surely for every famous band there's a dozen or more obscure ones, even in the 1970s.

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 1 Apr 2005 10:36 am

Point well-taken, Jason.

Hey speaking of 70's Kraut-rock, do you have any info on Popol Vuh? Their stuff is great --very Art Rock, or... Art something. I got turned on to them through Werner Herzog movies and thought the music was just mesmerizing. -GV

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 1 Apr 2005 11:06 am

I can't not check out a band called "The Bambi Molesters"....

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 1 Apr 2005 2:48 pm

John, I did some research on Steve's 'Portuguese' guitar, and it is a laud. The laud is a Spanish folk instrument with a lute-like body and twelve steel strings. The Spanish guitar manufacturer Alhambra makes lauds, and they make a model that looks exactly like the one Steve Howe plays. Steve calls it a 'Portuguese 12 string' because his sister bought it for him while she was in Portugal.