Country vs. Country

Walter Stettner · Post by **Walter Stettner** » 12 Nov 2004 2:03 pm

I have been following the comments on the CMA awards show and I agree with most of what has been said there.

Here is my private opinion on the whole issue. I am not trying to run anybody down, just attempting to give an explanation, as I see it.

I think that the overall term "Country" is not really valid anymore as different people use totally different definitions of that term.

No. 1 is the hitparade/top 40 stuff, mostly produced by major labels whose only goal is to make as much money as possible by selling "Country" to a wider audience. These are the people who are everything else than anchored in the tradition. Ask the average young kid who is crazy about "Save A Horse" what they think about Merle Haggard, Charley Pride or Buck Owens, in most cases they won't even know what you are talking about!

More buyers bring bigger profit. The result is some sort of an easy-listening music that is expected to appeal not so much to the traditional listeners of the music but to this audience that is "new" to the music. In most cases, the only connection to "country" is a cowboy hat and the use of sometimes offensive lyrics. That's how major labels try to sell the music to listeners who are also buying Rap, Rock, Grunge or whatever you call it. That's why most of us just shake their heads and move on when they hear this sort of stuff.

Remember, that is music where the music (meaning the musician's skills!) is the least important thing, there is no space for interesting musical ideas, no risk is being taken by the labels, they produce after a certain formula that has proven to be successful for the industry. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to run down the musicians who play on those records, they are great players, but the music mostly doesn't give them a chance to really show it. It is perfectly produced, but that's about it.

On the other hand we have the small independent productions, these are the ones where most of us get excited when we hear it - Justin Trevino, Amber Digby, Dickie Overbey, Jake Hooker, Red Kilby and all those great artists release albums as a labor love, often investing their own money. These records rarely get a chance for airplay on the major stations or for hitparade success. They are released in much smaller quantities (compared to the major label releases), they hardly ever receive attention on the nation-wide media (or do you think that Jay Leno would feature Jake Hooker as his special guest?). They invest their money to produce what they want, the result is a highly individual music that most of us can relate to.

I think one of the keys is the fact that we, as musicians, are listening to music in a different way than the average consumer of today. We are interested in musicianship far more than in style or image.

The result is two totally different worlds that are drifting more and more apart. We will come to the point (or have we already reached it?) where those two styles don't have much to do with each other anymore.

Of course I know that this is not a 100% general rule, there is still a lot of music that appeals to both worlds, it's just a growing trend that I see...

There is not much that we can do about it. Yeah, we can complain and mourn about it, but the chances that we will hear a lot of nice steel rides and great picking on the next CMA awards show is almost zero. The only thing that we really can do is support those great artists and bands by listening to them whenever we have the chance to...

Just my attempt to explain what's going on...

Kind Regards, Walter

www.lloydgreentribute.com
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

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Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 12 Nov 2004 2:08 pm

Good post Walter. You sure said it alot better than I did.

Rick

David Cobb · Post by **David Cobb** » 12 Nov 2004 2:25 pm

As another Forumite remarked in a past thread: (For the most part, what's coming out of Nashville is) country music for people who don't like country music.

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 12 Nov 2004 11:39 pm

Country music has suffered the same fate as rock music. It has become more formulaic than ever before, and the powers that be in the music business are only interested in what 'works'. And if a particular style/image is working (i.e. reaches the widest possible audience), it is run into the ground.

I'd say the big turning point in the music industry would be the year 1975. That's when disco took hold, and record label executives also realized there were a whole lot more people out there who could buy records. Think 'baby boom' generation in their teens and twenties.

1975 also marked the beginning of the era of 'blockbuster' movies. 'Jaws' was the first, I believe. From that point on the entertainment industry spent bigger bucks on production and promotion, and of course substance was sacrificed in favour of the spectacle.

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 13 Nov 2004 1:41 am

Maybe it's just the name.
Modern music writers have a nasty habit of using an old name for a completely different genre of music.
Think R&B. Do you think of BB King, or the British blues bands like the Rolling Stones? Then look at R&B in the modern record racks- you'll see gospel type warbling on one chord pop songs.
I guess you Texas types have a pretty good idea of what a two-step is. Not now.
Two-Step is a tiny variation on Electronic House music.
"Country" has been taken as a label for something else. I went to a Country show this week which included Songs by the Everley Brothers, the Stones, Elvis and the theme from Titanic (played on PSG with an Ebow) That is a pretty wide definition of Country, even for the UK!
Maybe old-school country artists should think of themselves as Pre-Brooksians by analogy with Pre Raphaelites in Art.
That's unless you think the rot set in much earlier than Garth Brooks, then you'd be a Pre Tubbsian, a Pre WillyNelsonian etc!

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Cheers!
Dave

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 13 Nov 2004 3:36 am

I agree with Walter.

But I also note that through time country music has ALWAYS had it's formulac segment for the radio.
I point , just as an example,
to the 60's, in this case to the abrupt change in Ray Price's music from Honky Tonk to smaltz crooner.
And he plumbed that, for me abysmal, pop style for years.

Only much later when he came out with Time (well for me anyway) did he return to a path that would have seemed real country, at least to me.

At the same time many others did the exact switch to a pop country.
Now it for some is considered an classic period.
Sure you had Buck and Hag, but they were considered rebels to some extent. Now theyare remembered as the best of this period. Go figure.

At that time the rock players who had re-discovered country,
were in many cases the only ones carrying the trad country torch. Not ALL cases but many.

So it isn't just now that country is lost to market forces,
some of our legendary country artists wandered off the reservation too,
taking much of the tribe with them for a spell.

After hearing Jake Hooker, I got interested in the roots of Ray Price, and got some CD''s one was a 16 greatest hits.

The beginning period I loved, what classic music.
but suddenly... OH MERDE what is this....????
I never liked that period, but sort of expected to have mellowed and maybe hear it with fresh aged ears and like it now.

No chance, Jack Palance, I couldn't finish one tune on the last half of the cd,
no matter how many times I tried.
Yet his early stuff, and TIme I truly enjoy.
But Ray went pop back then, pop for the, lost my woman, feeling maudlin, missing the old days, etc etc, crowd.
Back when this crowd actually bought records.
They don't so much anymore.

Yes, pickers listen to music differently than singers, or the average listener.
I think singer songwriters listen in a different way too.
Just ast short story tellers, have a different take than novelists, or liturature professors, or your average reader, when looking at a new book.

Charles French · Post by **Charles French** » 13 Nov 2004 6:08 am

You guys made some good points. To quote Dave "Maybe it's just the name". Ahh now we're getting somewhere! Country music isn't the only genre with these discussions. If you visit some of the Blues forums or Jazz forums you'll see and hear the same conversations. For instance, take a blues purist and then throw Kenny Wayne Sheppard in the mix with Son House or Howlin Wolf or how about Kenng G in there with MonK or Charlie Parker.

Like someone said about R&B, when you look at the R&B list now days, you don't see any of what we perceive as R&B. How do you think all the Puff Daddys would like it if the execs decided all of a sudden to include Buck or Ernest as R&B. I, like most here have been brought up to call a spade a spade. Terms have specific meaning and boundaries. The problem is that the boundaries have been broken.

I don't have a problem with anyone's right to play whatever they want. Hell, I have a broad taste in music. I love James Brown, but I'm gonna be P-Oed when they start calling James, "Country'. Just as it gripes me to see Kid Rock accepting the CMA Award as Country artist of the year! Which probably is in the near future.

The term "Country Music" has a sacret meaning that is de-vauled when you include some guy wearing a pink dress with body armor peircing, pretending to play a guitar with spider webs or some idiot who stomps across the stage spinning a mic stand and pretending he's some big talented "Country Star" It's like someone coming into your home and deficating on the floor.

The only way to end this discussion is to refine the genre's. Call a spade a spade. Make the terms more specific. As someone mentioned in another thread. If the execs think they're marketing music to a certain buying public, call it something else but don't call it "Country". The people that buy this stuff don't care what they call it. They would probably perfer they didn't call it Country. Maybe they can call it "Gruntry"

Pre Tubbsian is fine with me

[This message was edited by Charles French on 13 November 2004 at 06:10 AM.]

James Lutz · Post by **James Lutz** » 13 Nov 2004 6:43 am

What is happening in the music business of all genres is money overrides the soul.

Good music comes from the soul, and it is rare and precious. Other music comes from a formula that is manufactured in order to make a lot of money.

Nothing wrong with some people wanting to make a lot of money, greed has been around since humans pulled themselves upright. Fortunately, it doesn't infect everyone, so once in a blue moon a real good song slips through. Of course, the radio consultants at Clear Channel won't let it on the air, but that's what the internet is for, and this page. Many eyes and many ears out there looking and listening and if it's good, it's reported and we can find a way to buy it.

Walter Stettner · Post by **Walter Stettner** » 13 Nov 2004 6:49 am

Good points by David and Charles!

Yes, of course, the major country industry always used a formula as long as it was successful - just remember the the hundreds of recordings that had the "Hank" sound on it. But there was always, at least to a certain extent, the willingness to let artists try out something new. I don't believe that many of the artists on the big labels today really have control what they want to do or in which direction they want to go musically.

Just remember the Bakersfield sound, Haggard and Owens had a lot of their success on major labels. Same thing with the "Folk-Country" style of the 60's (Bobby Bare, George Hamilton IV) - they also recorded for major labels and set the path for new directions.

That is what I am missing today - no challenge is being taken by the industry, they repeat themselves until, sometimes by accident, something "new" comes along, then they are very fast on copying trends and trying to get a bigger piece of the cake (that's what happened in the "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou" craze, all of a sudden everybody wanted to be old timey and acoustic and even the most electric country band all of a sudden featured a mandolin player).

There must be an enormous amount of pressure on record execs today to be successful, that means to sell as much as possible. Market observations are obviously the most important measure for what is produced, no flops are being tolerated, that's why no risk is taken!

I am fully with Charles, I too listen to a wide spectrum of music, it is the labeling and the definitions that confuses me, No serious lover of classical music would ever have considered John Denver to be a classical singer just because he recorded with Placido Domingo, but in country they try to sell rock musicians, rappers and hip-hop artists as country...

I have no problem with that kind of music existing (I don't have to listen to it!), I only have a problem with it being labeled as "Country".

Kind Regards, Walter

www.lloydgreentribute.com
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

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Bob Markison · Post by **Bob Markison** » 13 Nov 2004 8:29 am

Fine thread. Freshness is on the wane within commercially viable musical idioms - country included. If I were not reading this forum, I would not have a fraction of my current appreciation of classic country including Bob Wills country-jazz music, Hawaiian music, etc. And this forum is a tiny peep hole that most listeners will never see (or hear). The incredible moments in music must be kept alive in order to inspire more of the same. Maybe some day the money people will develop musical creativity awards, with plenty of historical context for pleasurable listener engagement. I'd certainly watch a segment charting the fascinating history of steel guitar enroute to awarding current fine players. I'd also sit for a quick run down on the trajectory of the seventh chord from Chopin through Ellington and Parker and Coltrane. I'd sit for a cavalcade of the phenomenal studio musicians whose names have never appeared in print. What a pleasure it would be to hear an inset of the history of bass lines from James Jamerson and Jaco Pastorius through the present drum-bass combinations, including the Latin clave. When today's "producer-captive" players are showcased to the public without a referential system, the hype is intolerable. I don't think listeners are simple minded - they are just uninformed. I retain some cautious optimism so long as musicians insist on greater control and collaboration. The internet is opening a lot of ears (of listeners and consumers). Throw "Sleep Walk" at a living pantheon of great musicians working across various idioms(pigeon holes) of music and get the producers out of the way until it is time to play "Ultimate Sleep Walk". Fun ahead.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 13 Nov 2004 12:35 pm

The music business is just a flyspeck in the scheme of a much larger issue, namely, global homogenization. Human nature being what it is, the greedy, power-hungry people who shape the world’s policies want everybody to be the same. Gates wants everybody to use Windows, Clinton wants everybody to be a Democrat, Sam Walton wanted everybody to shop at Wal-Mart. AT&T and Comcast want all their customers to be nameless account numbers that can be outsourced and dealt with by a phone menu and a few mouse clicks. It’s been speculated that eventually there will be just one human race – light brown. But in all likelihood, war and disease will wipe out the present human race before we get to that point.

And that, grasshoppers, is why such a variety of musical acts are posing as country artists and why the record companies are putting out such drivel today – ideally, everyone will eventually have the same musical tastes so they won’t change stations before the next block of commercials comes on.

But I don’t care what’s being recorded downtown or who wins what award or where they have the ceremony. There’s plenty of good music from the last 70 years or so that’s readily available to satisfy me for the rest of my life.

Two problems remain, however. Where to get a gig and where to hear live music? Faron and Conway are gone and it ain’t lookin’ too good for Price and Haggard and the club scene ain’t what it used to be.

But wherever there’s a smoke-filled honky-tonk, I’ll be there. Wherever there’s a guy watching the bubbles in his beer and a bar bimbo looking for a free drink, I’ll be there. Wherever people come together to celebrate life’s joys and sorrows through music and dancing, I’ll be there with my steel guitar.

C#
www.calsharp.com [This message was edited by Cal Sharp on 13 November 2004 at 12:59 PM.]

Graham · Post by **Graham** » 13 Nov 2004 12:41 pm

I think Shania hit the nail right on the head in an interview up here in Toronto a week or so back:

"Mutt and I ONLY write songs that will get airplay!"

Airplay = "MONEY!"

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David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 13 Nov 2004 12:46 pm

Yep, Cal this hits home.

I would like to spend a week in Texas with Jake Hooker and Bobby Flores, and write 3 good songs for their style.
Tied a bit to today, but a lot to what they are really about.

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 13 Nov 2004 4:52 pm

I have an album of Miles Davis,w/ a pic of him on the cover,wearing a "cowboy-type" hat.
Does THAT make him "Country"?? I think not!!
Conway Twitty said it best,in one of his songs: "Don't Call Him A Cowboy,'Til You've Seen Him Ride"!

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mm if it ain't got that twang.
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Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 13 Nov 2004 5:12 pm

Great thread, Walter my friend.

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Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 14 Nov 2004 6:24 am

I wish I could write like Shania & Mutt!

Graham · Post by **Graham** » 14 Nov 2004 8:17 am

I'd settle for being able to write like Harlan Howard, Tom T., the Bryants etc. For me, it isn't the money, it's the MUSIC!

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ICQ 614585
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Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 14 Nov 2004 9:34 am

Maybe it boils down to being in the business for the love of the money or the love of the music. It seems in today's world it is the money, whereas years back it was more for the music. When they were traveling in cars and not getting paid by the promoters but yet they went on it had to be for the music.

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 14 Nov 2004 9:38 am

The focus of the thread so far has been on the music producing & distributing companies. How about looking at the consumer? At the very least, the young folks are enjoying some forms of music.

When the youngsters go looking for music to satisfy their needs for art, they look for what is both readily available, and what is popular, because they need to fit in.

It wouldn't matter what was in the marketplace, as long as everyone was grooving to that same music.

I appear to have come full circle. The big companies put out music. The consumers buy it.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 14 Nov 2004 10:04 am

Yep ! Cal # done said a mouthfull

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 14 Nov 2004 10:13 am

Cal, that was brilliant. Well said.

Charles French · Post by **Charles French** » 14 Nov 2004 10:25 am

"When the youngsters go looking for music to satisfy their needs for art, they look for what is both readily available, and what is popular, because they need to fit in."

Hendrix said it best, when he said "The only way to be in style, is to be out of style"[This message was edited by Charles French on 14 November 2004 at 10:26 AM.]

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 14 Nov 2004 10:50 am

Red Kilby · Post by **Red Kilby** » 14 Nov 2004 1:46 pm

Hi Walter, thanks for the comments. YES, IT WAS A LABOR OF LOVE!!!!!! >>>For all the folks that really love REAL COUNTRY MUSIC, and STEEL GUITAR!!!!!!

I would invite you all to check out my revamped website www.redkilby.com and you can hear "That Bakersfield Sound" as soon as you click on, and 30 seconds of each song.

If you want to support a Real Country artist the CD's are $15.00 each plus $3.00 shipping.

RLK MUSIC
6 Gradishar Place
Pueblo, Colorado 81004

I also have available now on the website PAYPAL for all the folks that want to use a credit card.

Thanks everyone, RED KILBY

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 14 Nov 2004 3:25 pm

Red,
I believe that's called a "shameless plug"!

(hope ya sell a million.)

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<pre> ~ ~
©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
www.ntsga.com</pre>