Music and religion redux.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 26 Sep 2004 2:29 am

I missed a chance to weigh in on the last thread before it was closed, but I wanted to add a musically related comment. I start with the religion thing but bear with me, as it's related to the music part (which is what I'd hope any responses will focus on).

I too am an atheist. A polyatheist, you might say, in that not only do I not believe in the Judeo-Christian god but I also don't believe in any of the other gods I've heard of, whether they be Santerian spirits, Buddhist demons, or even the conceptual gods of Spinoza and the like. I don't deny the power of what you might call a "transcendent" or "mystical" experience--what a Christian might call an "encounter with the holy spirit," or something--but I don't believe that those experiences have a supernatural basis.

What interests me, though, is how those "holy spirit" kind of experiences contribute to creativity and art. For example, when I went to see the Campbell Brothers and The Lee Boys, I was struck by the incredible amount of energy and passion that they put into their playing, and I have no doubt that their religious beliefs have something to do with that. Similarly, there's a whole lot of gospel music that I just love, that would not exist were it not for the church experience and the musical culture that developed within it. Also, one could point to examples such as Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, one of the greatest pieces of music ever written, whose text exhorts us to "Seek Him above the starry firmament" (although, I have to say, except for that one part, the lyrics are pretty pagan, if you ask me...).

Now, before I get carried away, there's clearly a lot of religiously based shite out there--Christian Rock, anyone? Some of the most insipid song writing you'll ever witness has been the result of "divine inspiration," I'm sure. (To put it in terms all you conservatives out there should enjoy: despite all the great Turkish music I've heard, it should be obvious that hearing Allah in one's ear does not guarantee quality output.) Not to mention the necessity of rewriting, editing, feedback, testing and practice--activities which I would argue reside mostly on the plane of the mundane. And, it should be said, some of the greatest music ever written--some of my favorite stuff, anyways--can claim a secular heritage.

But that's sort of beside the point, which is that a religious mindset, combined with the right environment, can lead to all sorts of wonderful musical experiences. And I wonder why this is so, and whether those "religious" experiences are achievable through secular means. To clarify, I already believe that those experiences are not a result of supernatural events, I'm wondering if there's something about religious thinking which makes it easier to achieve these kinds of states. Can we get ourselves into those kinds of "holy ghost power" experiences without having to believe in the supernatural?

-Travis[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 27 September 2004 at 12:28 PM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 26 Sep 2004 2:42 am

Can we get ourselves into those kinds of "holy ghost power" experiences without having to believe in the supernatural?

you probably can at first, but then it will be inevitable to believe in them afterwards
that's probably why i love and play Musik
to have a closer walk w: Thee

Donna Dodd · Post by **Donna Dodd** » 26 Sep 2004 4:56 am

I'm wondering if there's something about religious thinking which makes it easier to achieve these kinds of states.

Until you've experienced HIS love, you will always wonder. After . . . there's NO QUESTION.
It's so simple.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 26 Sep 2004 5:23 am

I have an Indian friend who shares my interest in that culture’s music, and he has pointed out to me that the truly transcendent musicians from there tend to settle into their spiritual and emotional paths rather early and comfortably – and then practice their a$$es off. Trauma, anguish and drugs sometimes fuel great artists for a little while, but those guys sure don’t seem to live very long, do they? The ones that do last a bit (Miles, Coltrane) seem to have great peaks and valleys in their playing.

The psychologists writing about “flow” and “peak experiences” are trying to get after the same thing in a secular way. Amazon.com quickie:
Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
Religions, Values, and Peak Experiences, Abraham Maslow

I think that a baseball player hitting home runs off of 100mph pitches, a jet fighter pilot at mach 2 or a tiger closing in on a wildebeest must all know something about harnessing adrenaline to a state of high concentration, but it’s still the practice that sets them up – including practicing HOW to harness adrenaline to a state of high concentration. In theory, you can’t play anything more than you know, BUT – you might know a lot more than you think. For me at least, it’s those little flashes of going “beyond”, that feeling of dissolving the gates between what my fingers can do and what my brain can conceive, that keeps me playing.

[This message was edited by David Mason on 26 September 2004 at 07:59 AM.]

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 26 Sep 2004 6:21 am

It's so simple!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 26 Sep 2004 9:55 am

And let's not forget the role of music in religous services. I was introduced to Bach as a child in the pews of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church. It taught me the boundlessness of music itself - maybe not the religious experience the elders hoped for, but an awakening nonetheless.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 26 Sep 2004 11:14 am

I, too, am an atheist, believing in the only sure things TIME, GRAVITY, NATURE and LOVE. Gods we conjured up to comfort and command ourselves. Humans fear uncertainty, i.e. DEATH, so we have elaborate cultural mechanisms, i.e. RELIGION, to legitimize our want of re-birth.

Having rambled on, I still love The Stanley Brothers gospel tunes! Oh yes, and "Softly and Tenderly".

Drew

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Fessenden D-10 8+8 / Magnatone S-8 (E13)

Donna Dodd · Post by **Donna Dodd** » 26 Sep 2004 11:28 am

Having rambled on, I still love The Stanley Brothers gospel tunes! Oh yes, and "Softly and Tenderly".

Let's see . . . how does that go? Softly and tenderly, Jesus is calling - calling for me and for you . . .

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_10.gif' border=0></a>

Sonny Priddy · Post by **Sonny Priddy** » 26 Sep 2004 11:34 am

I'M Not An Atheist And Ond Day No One Will Be . SONNY.

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Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 26 Sep 2004 1:15 pm

Travis; I couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you very much.
Cheers, Arch.
p.s.
bOb, What age are you? Introduced to Bach as a child! Did he give you any tips?
Sorry, only pulling your G-string.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Sep 2004 1:18 pm

One of the main "respectable" uses for music down through the ages was in worship services.

I believe partly that NEED for respectability was engendered
by a clergy that saw up close how powerfully a well turned musical segment
could move the hearts and minds of men.

And so they endevoured for centuries, to see that this "devine power"
never was used in the wrong hands for the wrong reasons.

There was a long period of time where you would have been flogged
for playing C6 P5 and P6
down. i.e. a diminished or minor7b5 chord.

It had a b5 and this was considered the devils scale degree, and was banned.

It has now found a home in most warning systems and British police sirens.
Since it cuts through most any sounds in a car.. like a radio song.

Eventually it did find a home because it could
MOVE between chords with other voicings.

But even then some church figures very much discouraged it.

It was tied to the deviltries of blues and JAZZ,
and the debauched life styles they were thought to encompass. And sometimes did.
In inverse affect it actually made them more interesting for many, and contributed to the rise of jazz.

After a while you had jazz bands playing you
from the church to the grave in New Orleans.

Now we even have gospel / jazz church services, where those once forbidden chords,
are used to create EVEN MORE emotional responce,
by their tension and release effects.

Yes music and religion are quite tied together. Maybe because both touch a close held, unconcious need in the human phscye.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 September 2004 at 02:47 PM.][This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 September 2004 at 02:48 PM.]

Janice Brooks · Post by **Janice Brooks** » 26 Sep 2004 2:46 pm

I choose to avoid church because of it politics. However over the years I sang in youth choir and played hand bells. My piano playing is not much better then my steel, but hymns and their chords seem fairly easy.

It did not hurt to be raised in the generation of Tennessee Ernie Ford either.

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 26 Sep 2004 3:19 pm

Religion covers a lot of bases. Islam, Budda, Hindu and others. Some would include Christians. Not so.

Christians are about Jesus (the) Christ. Period.

There are offshoots. Chatholics, Mormons, Adventists etc. who all add their own flavor and conditions.

Christ is the answer. Dogmatic. Unbendable. Unimpeachable. Who created and has power over all things forever.

Even a Bb note.

Donno why I interject this post. For Him I guess. For you'all certainly. At best it might provoke some thought. At worst, at the White Throne Judgment, Jesus will show you this post as another thing about Him you have rejected.

Reading this is a pain in the butt and will probably make you angry and frustated that you have to deal with it. So be it.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 26 Sep 2004 3:58 pm

Thank you, Ken. You speak volumes!
I don't really get this thread, or the one that was closed. Both guys seem to be seeking a spiritual existence, while denying the presence of the Spirit.
And, for the record, it's not MY death I'm concerned about. It's you guys who refuse to acknowledge God through His son, Jesus, that I worry about.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 26 Sep 2004 6:09 pm

Thomas, because you have seen me, you now believe. Blessed are those who have not seen me, and yet believe.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Sep 2004 10:30 pm

So , how might it be that these different "flavors and conditions"
are not doctrinaire variances of dogma,
therefor to one extent or another incorrect or not " unimpeachable"?

In which case how does one in search,
tell which one is correct and unimpeachable?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Religion covers a lot of bases. .......
Some would include Christians. Not so.

Christians are about Jesus (the) Christ. Period.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't follow how this seems to say "religions" do NOT include Christians?
Can you explain?

Also, in your statement he is called Jesus The Christ, which means Jesus the anointed.

By whom and by what authority in your tradtion did this anointing take place?
And is there variance as to what this meant?
In what other tradtions is this at variance?

Not disputing, just asking.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 September 2004 at 11:39 PM.]

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 27 Sep 2004 4:59 am

And let's not forget the role of music in religous services. I was introduced to Bach as a child in the pews of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church. It taught me the boundlessness of music itself - maybe not the religious experience the elders hoped for, but an awakening nonetheless.

Bobby - Bach was not the only one. Virtually all of the "great composers" wrote inspirational works. Also, many sought to argue, poetically through music, the concept of good vs. evil and God vs. Satan. Much of the great music we continue to enjoy today was born out of religious experiences and good vs. evil dichotomies. It isn't just "Church Music". However, Bach harmonized more Chorales (hymns) than any other composer in history.

David L. Donald - Christ was annointed by God, his father. In Luke 4:16 Jesus said, "The Spirit of the Lord is on me because he has annointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the opressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

All the proclaimed atheists & agnostics - IMHO some of you are confusing logic with nebulus philosophical thought. We might as well be debating the old "tree in the forest" question. If you wish to consider true logic you should probably read the writings of Blaise Pascal, one of the greatest logical mathmaticians in history. Here's a quote from a biography on Pascal:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"Pascal follows two major lines of argument. On the one hand, like the existentialists who would follow in his footsteps, Pascal argues that religion, from the most skeptical position, is necessary, if for no other reason, then simply because a world without the belief in God would be hopeless and absurd. On the other hand, Pascal presents coherent arguments, some of which are based on his probability theoy (i.e., Pascal's "wager"), which argue that, within reason, the belief in Christ is a rational choice.

Pascal's "wager" argument holds that, given the choice between a belief in Christianity and non-belief, it is more reasonable, given the potential outcomes, to believe in a Christian God. Despite the potential outcome, that either God does nor does not exist, the believing Christian "wins" in that, if God does exist, he or she will share in infinite life. If God does not exist, both the believer and the non-believer suffer the same fate; whereas, if God does exist, the unbeliever loses infinite life. Pascal was attacked in that his "wager" applies equally well to all other religions which promise infinite life. However, this criticism was defended by arguing that Pascal was not comparing Christianity to other religions, but, rather, he merely showed how a belief in Christianity holds an advantage over non-belief."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm all for the most logical of advantages when it comes to eternity!

Finally, in an effort to keep this on-topic, the Bible challenges us to make music to the Lord and each other. Paul writes in Ephesians 5:19, "Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

For those who have off-topic comments, feel free to email me.

Don

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fo·rum - n - A public meeting place for open discussion.
-------- mod·er·a·tor - n. - One that arbitrates or mediates.
-------- de-bate - v. - To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally, sufficiently observing or befitting accepted social usages.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Sep 2004 5:24 am

Don, good responce.
Luke 4 : 16 actually seems to be closer to Ben Franklin's take on things, than a preacher.
I am not sure Jonathan Edwards would have agreed in his day.

But does it seem to go all the way to unimpeachable dogma or doctrine?

It is very good social goals and a sense of hope for many. Certainly worthy.
But is this quote more indirect than direct?

confusing logic with nebulus philosophical thought

nebulous

adj 1: lacking definite form or limits; "gropes among cloudy issues toward a feeble conclusion"- H.T.Moore; "nebulous distinction between pride and conceit" [syn: cloudy, nebulose]

2: lacking definition or definite content; "nebulous reasons"; "unfixed as were her general notions of what men ought to be"- Jane Austen [syn: unfixed]

Isn't philosophical searching by it's very nature looking at the unfixed,
lacking definite form or limits?

If it wasn't would we need to look?
Any other input on these questions?

And should we not swing this back, more towards the music?

Was not the setting of the psalms and other liturgical writings used to increase the ferver, even of those who actualy at those times,
did not understand the latin they were hearing, only the lessons during the semons?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 September 2004 at 06:56 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Sep 2004 6:42 am

Muslims believe their religion came from Abraham, Moses and Jesus. But they think Jesus was just another prophet, and no more the son of God than anyone else. They believe that, after the time of Jesus, God spoke through Mohammed, and that those are the last words of God and supercede Judaism and Christianity. I feel not the slightest compunction to "wager" anything on this nonsense. Nor do I feel any need to wager on any other of the thousands of religious preachings around the world. It is not a harmless or cost-free wager. What you lose is your individual reason and credulity, your intellectual freedom..., oh yeah, and all of science. Um...no thanks.

And all the stuff about how unique Christianity is? The myth of a leader rising from the dead was apparently borrowed from other previous religions from that region. Some scholars believe Christ wasn't even real, but was a cover story for a group of zealots who ate magic mushrooms. Others now think he was a military rebell whose image was later softened to appeal to Greeks and Romans. There is nothing at all proven or obvious about the Christian myth. As with any other religion, you take what you want from all the various versions and believe by blind faith.

Now about the music. There are at least two poles in religious music. At one end is the harmonic and ethereal European based music coming from the Gregorian chants and through Bach. Wagner's opera Parcival embodies this in one long strain from beginning to end (about four hours as I remember). The other extreme is the energetic and rythmic music from Africa. Middle Eastern, Indian and Asian musics also tend to one end or the other of this spectrum. All of these strains have pagan roots that preceeded Christianity or any other extant religion. You can put yourself into a musical trance for Jesus, Yaweh, Allah, Krishna, the devil, the fertility god, or take your pick. I'm not sure what this says, but it doesn't seem to support the idea that any particular version of God and any particular type of music make each other inevitable. There is something in us that wants to come out in the form of music.

"It's in 'im, and it's got to come out. Let that boy boogie-woogie...How, how, how, how!" - John Lee Hooker.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 27 September 2004 at 08:40 AM.]

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 27 Sep 2004 7:28 am

Folks, this is way off-topic.

David Doggett - I suggest that you read "Cynic, Sage, or Son of God" by Dr. Greg Boyd - and if that gets to heavy then "Letters from a Skeptic" by the same author. To believe removes nothing from the individual. God said, "Come let us reason together". All of the Bible and Christ's teachings revolve around a free-will thought process and choice. He ecourages us to "wrestle" with the issue.

David L. Donald - I'll respond in the email I owe you. I will say that most of most of the anti-religious comments center around "I can't or have no need to believe". That is personal philosopy not pure logic. Pascal's take is based on pure logic.

Don

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fo·rum - n - A public meeting place for open discussion.
-------- mod·er·a·tor - n. - One that arbitrates or mediates.
-------- de-bate - v. - To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally, sufficiently
-------- observing or befitting accepted social usages.

[This message was edited by Don Joslin on 27 September 2004 at 08:29 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Sep 2004 7:38 am

Perhaps, God is showing himself to different people, by different names, in different ways, at different times?

Perhaps, he is all one, but doesn't CHOOSE to communicate the same way each time.

He chooses a different form of musical communicaion... communion,
each time also.Depending on the adaptive abilities of man at each phase.

Yet he / she could still be one and the same..
yet man has turned the words as circumstances dictated to his own ends?
Would that be the first time?

Is it only once that man has understood, OR misunderstood in all the mlienia?

Why would this be a wager?
Why would he devise mans very savlation based on a bet?

God said, "Come let us reason together" *. All of the Bible and Christ's teachings revolve around a free-will thought process and choice. He ecourages us to "wrestle" with the issue.

So reason and faith are NOT incompatible?<

* this comes from where? Isaiah, American Standard, but in what context
Isaiah 1:16 -1:19
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith Jehovah: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land.

Very much the historical carrot or stick, but I don't see the relavance to the music topic.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 September 2004 at 09:01 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Sep 2004 7:46 am

It was Pascal who proposed that belief or disbelief in religion is a wager. I don't know that God ever proposed such a wager.

Pascal's wager only makes sense in considering Christianity alone, or any other single religion or sect. But in considering all the world's religions, you can't place a single wager, the religions are contradictory and wont allow that. Is that God's work, or man's?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Sep 2004 7:50 am

Could it be both?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Sep 2004 7:58 am

So God tells different things to different people, and sets it as our task to figure out the truth? Might then modern science be what God is telling the scientists?

According to Godel's famous proof, any closed system of logic contains contradictions. So in this sense, contradictions are built into the universe.

Well it's all led to lots of different types of religious music. It would seem that God loves diversity.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Sep 2004 8:08 am

One general look at our point of existance / world / universe would seem to confirm that last sentence.