Music and religion

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 5 Sep 2004 8:51 am

I am an atheist, but have to admit some, if not most of the greatest music ever composed has been been done so in the name of "God"? I'm not looking for an argument, just making an observation.
Cheers, Arch.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 5 Sep 2004 10:20 am

Passion and ritual have been the impetus for most, if not all, of the great art and music since the beginning of time. For the composers in the medieval, renaissance and baroque periods, the only institutions who had any money were the church and nobility. If you had strong religious convictions with musical genius and passion, and needed a job, it was an ideal situation.

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 5 Sep 2004 10:23 am

I think there's a simple explanation for this.... Since God is the greatest, any music He has a hand in composing has no choice but to be the greatest.

God produces music through us in all different styles to appeal to all the different people He has created. When music is made truly in His name, for His glory, and when it touches someone's life, as it has yours, that's a great thing!!

Great Post!!

God Bless!!!

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Sep 2004 12:17 pm

Some of the greatest anything has been done that-away.

I know it's a simple thing to say..

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 5 Sep 2004 12:19 pm

WOW, Eric!!! A simple, one sentence reply, with no quips.
To which I can only add, AMEN!!!

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 5 Sep 2004 1:16 pm

I don't know the percentage, but some hymns were written as secular songs. Later, the music was used and the words modified for use in the church. Kinda like the way The William Tell Overture was adapted to be the Lone Ranger theme song.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 5 Sep 2004 3:52 pm

Music is just a language to communicate with God.

Bob Markison · Post by **Bob Markison** » 5 Sep 2004 8:03 pm

Good thread. I was around reading about DNA in the 50's. Incredible story - and intrinsically musical. Later we humans laid out our own genomic map of DNA code in the year 2000. One of the oldest languages, Chinese, is tonal. From Chinese pentatonics to Gregorian chants to the 50-60 microtones of Indian scales, back to our own Western 12 step chromatic scale, humans have used the creative power and quest built into every strand of DNA to play the music to each other and play the music back to an inestimably miraculous higher power. I have never doubted that we are divinely encoded to re-encode the frequency spectrum of sound as music for all of time. How blessed we are to have music. According to the genomic cartographers, much of the human brain's music processing is developmentally directed by the HFOX2 genome. This 715 amino acid sequence is identical to 713 of the amino acids in the chimp's chromosome. But 2 amino acids are different, making humans uniquely musical. To my thinking, this ecomomy of uniqueness is a profound miracle. We are encoded in an amazing image, and free to choose or not choose a specific scriptural format in which to feel thankful. Best regards to all who make and feel music. - Bob

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Sep 2004 8:09 pm

Ya know Bob,

I was just going to say that myself..

EJL

Bob Markison · Post by **Bob Markison** » 5 Sep 2004 8:13 pm

most excellent

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 6 Sep 2004 3:07 am

Here's what I believe: "Every good and perfect gift (*most certainly including music* [parenthesis is mine]) comes from above, from the Father of Lights, in whom there is no darkness, neither any shadow of turning." (James 1:17)

Or, as the hymn has it,

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.

Rick

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 6 Sep 2004 4:21 pm

Musicians go where the money is.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 6 Sep 2004 4:38 pm

So do preachers.

EJL

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 6 Sep 2004 10:45 pm

A lot of music is inspired by alcohol and drugs and written by evangelizers.

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 7 Sep 2004 7:51 am

Not all, Eric. There are only a few who got into the ministry for the money. Most could take the 3-7 years of post-graduate education they are required to have (at least in the Presbyterian church) and make twice the income in a secular field. For every big-time, highly-paid preacher in a high-profile congregation, there are 500 ministers serving small congregations and barely getting by. A few preachers have probably given the humble masses a bad name.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with getting paid. I commend it to you!

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 07 September 2004 at 09:01 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 Sep 2004 9:33 am

Archie, I've often had the same thought. Whether I'm an antheist or not depends on your definition of God. If you mean an old man with a white beard who lives up in heaven and rewards believers and punishes disbelievers, then I'm an atheist. On the other hand I believe as Einstein and many other scientists (and Eastern religions) that the universe or nature is God, which makes me a pantheist. In this sense there is no separate God that lives outside the laws of nature. God is the laws of nature. We creatures are each part of God, and we are the way in which God experiences. We are the eyes and ears of God and the way the universe experiences itself. When we make music, we are God making music, and God listening to God make music.

In spite of my lack of belief in organized religion, I was raised in the church, and the main thing I miss is the music, whether high church Bach, or rural gospel music. It is especially interesting to me that many of the most creative musicians of rock'n'roll and rythmn'n'blues came from the Pentacostal or Holiness churches of the South - what are popularly called Holy Rollers. That includes Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, Aretha Franklin and many, many more. The Sacred Steelers also come from a similar tradition. I also think many top country musicians came from the rural gospel tradition.

On the other hand, many musician's who came from these religious backgrounds rebelled against the restrictive social aspects and superstitious trappings of organized religion. Rock'n'roll and blues have been secular rebellions against restrictive, superstitious religion from the beginning. The whole rockabilly thing with the dice and card emblems (including the Sho-Bud fret board emblems) and hard drinking lifestyle was part of that. The whole sixties rock thing of sex and drugs came from this. Some old school blues musicians went from religious music to secular blues, others went from blues back into religion (Son House). This struggle is still very much alive today. One of John Lee Hooker's last songs said:

Ain't no heaven, ain't no hell.
Where I go when I die, no one can tell.

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 7 Sep 2004 1:03 pm

Much of what you're saying is true, David. If you don't think that Rock and Roll came from the church, listen to the Isley Brothers doing "Shout!". It's just black gospel, with a different lyric... and that's only one of thousands of songs that follow that tradition.

It makes me sad anytime I hear that someone grew up around church folks, but have chosen to reject the biblical gospel. I pretty much put the "blame" for that on the heads of those who must've drawn you a picture of the gospel/church that was so restrictive that there was no room for your intellect to maneuver. And you're only one of thousands.

My Dad's a Baptist preacher, but he always encouraged me to question things, to make honest intellectual enquiry, and to simply trust God for the things I didn't yet understand. I found liberty in that, and never needed to rebel against the church. If, however, my parents (or my pastor- in my case, my Dad was both) had been narrow-minded, I might have rebelled too.

In the face of community/church opposition, he (Dad) took an unpopular stand on race relations. He also championed the establishment of a "teen club" in our community where all the local teen bands could play and teenagers could gather with their dates, etc. This was pretty revolutionary stuff in the mid-1960's South. He was (and is) a cool guy, and I only wish you and some other folks could've had a pastor like that... I think it might've made a difference in the way that you view god. It undoubtedly made a difference for me.

In the biblical view, "God CREATED the heavens and the earth". That is to say, the universe is subservient to Him and it exists at His pleasure. He is Lord of creation, not to be identified with it.

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 07 September 2004 at 02:24 PM.]

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 7 Sep 2004 1:35 pm

I consider myself a Christian (a sinner saved by grace) and I find no greater pleasure than "giving praises to the Lord on an instrument of 10 strings" (Psalms 33:2)
Erv

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 7 Sep 2004 2:33 pm

Rick Mc D, how often do i read your posts and enjoy them ?
most every time

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 7 Sep 2004 3:53 pm

I am now feeling guilty for raising this question, as I was not looking for an argument. I was brought up a Christian and my big sister is an Elder in the Church of Scotland(A non-controlling easy going Church), but looking at belief in a superior being leaves me flummoxed. There is no evidence of the existence of God other than man written documentation. I believe that Jesus may have existed as a man, but not as the son of God. The Gospels were supposedly written forty or so years after the crucifiction and M,M,L and J seem to have some contradictions in their writings. All this was written in simpler times when the world was flat and the sun revolved around it. I reckon as people got smarter, especially in Western Europe and the Middle East, developing religions preyed on peoples' fears to further their own agendas. The Spanish could have(being Moorish), introduced Islam as the main religion in the Americas but for the Crusades and some lucky timing. The rest, for a microcosm in time, is "History".
All the best Arch.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 7 Sep 2004 4:29 pm

Don't start feeling guilty.

It's a one way, dead end street.

If you were a Catholic you'd probably have to go to confession.

Being a Lutheran myself, we usually don't do confession unless confronted with overwhelming evidence.

I think it was a good post.

I'm not "Preacher" material.

I appreciate those that do.

Arguing religion?

Second only to my love of arguing politics.

Second only to my love of playing pedal steel guitar.

EJL

Savell · Post by **Savell** » 7 Sep 2004 4:44 pm

humans have used the creative power and quest built into every strand of DNA to play the music to each other and play the music back to an inestimably miraculous higher power. I have never doubted that we are divinely encoded to re-encode the frequency spectrum of sound as music for all of time.

Bob Markison, you are so close to right that I had to include this clip in this post.

An interesting article relative to the following KJV scripture...
Ezekiel 28:13 “The workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes”
toph: translated as tambourine (tabrets)
neqeb: translated as pipe (bezel)

Here Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost writes:
“Musical instruments were originally designed to be means of praising and worshipping God. It was not necessary for Lucifer to learn to play a musical instrument in order to praise God. If you please, he had a built-in pipe organ, or, he was an organ. That’s what the prophet meant when he said, ‘the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes.…’ Lucifer, because of his beauty, did what a musical instrument would do in the hands of a skilled musician, bring forth a psalm of praise to the glory of God. Lucifer didn’t have to look for someone to play the organ so that he could sing the doxology—he was a doxology.” (Your Adversary, the Devil, p. 16)

Summary:
Lucifer (described here as) being the great and masterful worship leader in Heaven itself, when cast from his exalted position, left the void for the worship and praise that God so much enjoys and favors.

A LA! There is where we come in... The creation of music originally intended for God's pleasure like so many other things has been abused and used for whatever man has chosen. However it is no less powerful or important today than prior to the creation of mankind.

BTW, This was not a sermon. There is, however, a sermon embedded in this scripture dealing with man's self-governed will.

------------------
Savell Norsworthy
Fessenden SD10/Nashville 400;Fender Telecaster;Alembic Epic Bass/Peavey TNT115 Sheffield
Savell Ministries

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 7 Sep 2004 5:19 pm

A holograph is taken by laser light. If you look at the negative in natural light, it's a mumbo jumbo of images that make no sense whatever. Seen again thru the laser light illuminating it, it now makes sense again. It's the lens of the laser that makes it understandable.

The bible makes no sense at all without the lens of the Holy Spirit illuminating it. You have to ask God for that lens, that you may begin to understand.

My only problem is: God numbers each hair on your head. In my best Jerry Reed imitation I would say, Lord, cain't you count a litte higher?"

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 7 Sep 2004 5:22 pm

As humans we are blessed with music. We hear it,play it etc. But a Dog was blessed Also( one of God's creatures)with far superior hearing,a greater frequency span.If we could only know how they hear music,or what they think of the steel guitar. Howllllllll. Joe[This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 07 September 2004 at 06:25 PM.][This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 07 September 2004 at 06:27 PM.]

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 7 Sep 2004 6:57 pm

Arch,

I don't consider this to be an argument. It's just a free and friendly exchange of ideas.

You HAVE asked an important question, so you're going to get some animated answers.

St. Augustine wrote, "Do not seek to understand in order that you may believe, but believe in order that you may understand." Faith comes first, then understanding.

There are lots of classic philosophical arguments, or "proofs" for the existence of God, and I can briefly describe the chief ones, if anyone cares to request it.

Paul makes a cogent case for the existence of God and the unique place of Christ in his letter to the Romans, if you'd care to consult some primary source material. Personally, I'm always moved by the beauty and wonder of creation. I will never be convinced that this magnificent, orderly world in which we live, or the beautiful people that are here, are "accidental"; I see the hand of a Master Designer at every turn.

Thanks, Crowbear. Right back at ya.

Hey, where's DD? Still in St. Louis? This is right up his alley!![This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 08 September 2004 at 06:10 AM.]