The Western Cherokees

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 5 Jun 2004 9:37 pm

The Western Cherokees were mainly from around Beaumont, Texas, but the Western Cherokees band had it's roots in the Dallas area with Bob Manning And His Riders Of The Silver Sage.
Robert Lawrence 'Blackie' Crawford was the leader, guitarist and vocalist, Pee Wee Reid (bass), and Billy Gray (guitar, vocals), all played in this band circa 1948-49.

The Riders Of The Silver Sage group evolved into The Sons Of Texas, this outfit was active in Dallas in 1949-50 with Blackie Crawford, Harold 'Curly' Chalker on steel, Pee Wee Reid played bass for a time and Billy Gray was involved, probably just prior to his joining Hank Thompson’s band.

What can I say about this band, they were partially on 1950-1951 sides by Lefty Frizzell, this was when the group was the Tune Toppers and evolved into the Western Cherokees.

In 1951-52 the group recorded for the Coral label with three featured vocalists and some instrumental stuff.
These sides were being released as late as 1953.

Blackie Crawford remained the leader for some years, their steel players included Curly Chalker, Pee Wee Whitewing, Bobby Black, Corlue Bordelon, then Bobby Garrett, then Jimmy Biggar (aka Biggers/Biggars).

Other members include they Hayes Brothers Kenneth (aka Little Red) and Joe (aka Big Red), Danny Brown, Norm Stephens (who appears on Haggard's Roots Vol.1 CD), Abe Manuel Snr, Arlie Duff (featured vocalist), and many others.

They toured with Frizzell (up to 1952), Webb Pierce, and Rusty McDonald, although they didn't record with the latter two.

They were tied heavily into the early Starday label, and recorded behind Al Petty, George Jones, Arlie Duff, Mary Jo Chelette, Patsy Elshire, the Hayes Brothers, Bob Heppler (actually a WC member), Blackie Crawford, and so on.
This was from 1953 (early stuff with Bobby Black) to 1954 (latter sides, including early Jones recordings with Jimmy Biggars).

By 1954 there was two versions, one was playing a Jamboree Show in Houston with Arlie Duff and led by Sonny Burns. (The Houston Hometown Jamboree)
The other version was a touring group led by Tommy Hill, as Blackie quit the band some time in '54.
Hill may have also worked with the Burns version of the group.

Either way, the bulk of the Touring band with original drummer Jimmy Dennis (who went back to 1950 Frizzell sessions with the Tune Toppers), Hill and Jimmy Biggar; hooked up with Ray Price in about August of '54 and moved to Nashvile.

They recorded with Price in that month and became the first version of the Cherokee Cowboys, with Pete Wade and others coming in to replace the original band.
Blackie actually replaced Tommy Hill for a couple of months in late '54, but before the year was out he was back in Texas and Van Howard from the Louisiana Hayride had taken his place (lasted to about 1959 or so).

Blackie later went on to lead Texas versions of the Western Cherokees, pretty much unrelated to the original band, or Price's group over the years.
He also did a stint with Bill Madre's band in San Angelo, around 1954 or so.
Madre and Crawford had also worked as part of San Angelo's bandleader Jimmie Fletcher’s band The Drifting Ranch Hands which had given employment to the likes of Fletcher’s wife, Miss Billie on piano, Bobby Roundtree, Lee Simpson, Don Ricketson, Oscar James, Johnny Thurman, Johnny Dutton, Junior Pelzel, Dave Kirby, Jimmy Biggars and Charlie Timms among others. * no dates on any of these though.

Steel player Bobby Dixon from Odessa, has claimed that he worked with Blackie. Between 1951-54 Dixon had played with Jerry Byler, Cotton Thompson, Billy Thompson, Troy Jordon and the Cross B Boys, Bobby Hudnell and Hoyle Nix, Cotton Collins in Austin, and in San Angelo in Bill Madre’s band, including Mancell Turney on piano (ex-Bob Wills), fiddle players Tommy Canfield and Billy Cooper, bassist Shan Kennedy and ex-Western Cherokee Jimmy Dennis on drums. Dixon split that group for Odessa in 1954, where worked at Al Petty’s School of Music. Bobby, Al and Bobby Garrett taught during the day while Dixon played nights with Billy Thompson at the Melody Club.

* the dates on Dixon's involvement may be a bit out of whack, the Petty School of Music seems about right, but in 1954 I'm sure that Jimmy Dennis was still with Price, at least into 1955, maybe even later?.. if so, the Madre band would be later, maybe even after the stint with Al Petty.

Jody Sanders has shared some cool stories about the 1950s Texas scene, and did work with Blackie as well.
Whether this was after he split the group in 1954, and when he went on to lead other versions of the WCs in around 1955 onwards, well, I'm not sure.

Jody posted things like ths on the Forum in the past:
Jimmy Biggers was playing the "Skull Orchards" in Kilgore, Gladewater, and Longview as was myself and Bobby Garrett in the early 50's. We all served a little time with Blackie who was a real nice person
I met Al (we called him Albert back then) Perkins in Odessa, Tx. in about 1953 or 1954. he was a student at Al Petty's Steel Guitar School. I was teaching part time and working with Blackie Crawford. Al was way above the average student and he was taught by Al Petty himself. Al Perkins had the natural talent and drive that it takes to be a super picker, and he has done just that.

Another rare visitor to the forum, Bobby Tuttle once told me via email:
"Al and I took lessons at the same time from Al Petty. Al (Petty) took us to the local TV station to play on their Saturday afternoon country music show. was about 9 or 10 and I was about 13. Al Petty was about 19. We played several songs in three part harmony on the steels. I remember we played Steel Guitar Rag and Snow Deer. I don't recall what else we did. (It's been a long time) I do remember how thrilled I was
to get to play on TV. I thought I had really made the big time."

There's a lot more to find out, and so many of these pickers have sadly passed away.

What I'm hoping is that Forum members might have some info on earlier groups that members mentioned here may have been a part of, or perhaps they have some old Country Song Roundups, Starday flyers, anything that can add to this search for the history of the Western Cherokees.

thanks everyone....

Jason Odd

------------------
Reintarnation: Coming back to life as a hillbilly.

[This message was edited by Jason Odd on 05 June 2004 at 10:40 PM.]

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 6 Jun 2004 1:01 pm

As always, Jason; nice and easy reading. The best way to end a relaxing sunday afternoon. BTW: I love your reintarnation !

Regards, Paul

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 7 Jun 2004 1:04 am

A shucks Paul, I wish it were my saying, but I saw it somewhere and decided that I needed a good signature for topic posts.

I have become obsessed with this group, and hope to see a reissue of their sides compiled with some of their session work.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 8 Jun 2004 7:54 am

Okay, a little slow here.

Does anyone know guitarist Leon Chambers, who was only 12 years old when he began playing guitar for Blackie Crawford and the Western Cherokees?

I'd be interested to know if that's true, (which I think it is) and what he recalls of those times.

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 8 Jun 2004 8:14 pm

Hi Jason, Leon is in the Dallas area working gigs with Tommy Morrell, He has been one of the staff guitar players at the TSGA Show for several years. Still picks great. jody.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 9 Jun 2004 1:05 am

Hi Jody, good to have your input on this topic, and thankyou for your past input in my quest in finding out more about the WCs.

I don't suppose you know if Leon has email or not, a web search revealed nothing, although I did notice as you say that he is closely associated with Tommy Morrell and I noticed that he played on one of Herb Steiner's CDs.

Jody, do you recall any other members of the WCs that you would have worked with at all?

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 9 Jun 2004 4:53 am

Jason, if you want the word from the horses mouth Leon can be reached at POBox 912 Wylie, Tx 75098-0912 or sjbbc1@aol.com CC

Butch Foster · Post by **Butch Foster** » 10 Jun 2004 5:58 am

Is this the same Jimmy Dennis who was with Gene Wortham and the Circle O Ranchboys? Rick?

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 10 Jun 2004 6:41 am

C.C. as always you sir are a true gent, thanks for passing that email on to me.

Butch, I'm aware that there was a Jimmy Dennis that worked with Wortham's band, I've never found out if it was the same person.

Wortham's band in 1949 included Dean Neely and Bobby Garrett on twin Steel, Jimmy Dennis and Rob Blackwell (bass?)
Neely split for South Texas in 1949, and Jody Sanders went on to play twin steel with Bobby if I'm not mistaken.
Thinking about it, it probably is the same Jimmy Dennis, but I'd love to know for sure.

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 11 Jun 2004 8:53 pm

Re: Jimmy Dennis. To the best of my knowledge, Jimmy did not play drums. Gene used Jimmy and Rob on guitars and Doc Shelton was the bass player. Jimmy is in Lindale, Tex. (funeral director) Gene is still in East Texas. There were a lot of good players and singers that worked in Gene's band . Among them, Leo Jackson, Curtis Kirk,Bobby garrett, Dean Neeley,Doc Shelton, Jimmy Dennis and Burton Harris. To the best of my knowledge, Gene never used a drummer during my tenure. Also, Billy Bob Turner played steel with Garrett for a short time. Little Red Hayes played fiddle a short time. Jody.

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 11 Jun 2004 9:59 pm

Jason.Is the Jerry Byler the same fiddle player that worked with the Miller Brothers out of Wichita Falls? Jerry,Bobby Rhodes an Bobby Zelner played fiddles.Most of the orginal gang was gone when i started playing steel with them.If we are talking about the same Jerry he was one funny and great guy not to mention a great fiddle player.Tracy
ft.Worth,Tx

Emmett Roch · Post by **Emmett Roch** » 12 Jun 2004 3:06 am

Not directly on-topic, but still connected--Bill Madry played guitar with Hank Thompson for a short while in the early 60's; Bert Rivera could tell you the exact time frame.

Growing up as I did in west Texas, it was not uncommon to go see any of the area bands and see as many as three Madry's in it, Bill and Gene on guitar and Jim on bass.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 13 Jun 2004 6:55 pm

Hey, I've been away for a few days, so it's nice to come back to a few replies.
Jody, thanks for your reply in regards to Jimmy Dennis, I also got an email from historian Andrew Brown who confrimed as you did, that they were different fellows named Jimmy Dennis.

I've heard of Madry playing with a lot of acts, although I was unaware of his stint with Hank Thompson.
Bill had a sizable band in 1964, pretty much one of the last of the Texas big bands, although Dewey Groom made his band last into the early 1970s, there were others, but by 1969 it was incrediably rare to see a big band, let alone have one still recording.

Tracy Sheehan, I'm not much of a Miller Brothers historian, when abouts did you join the group?

For those wishing to join an email list with a lot of information in regards to South West bands, labels and acts, I recommend the following Yahoo list.

S_W_M · Southwestern Music History
Description Category: 1950s
A discussion group for all types of music from the Southwest, focusing primarily on the pre-1960 era.
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/S_W_M/

I think this list compliments this forum, it's a more specialised forum and has a far smaller membership.

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 14 Jun 2004 12:40 am

Jason.As i recall it was 1962 or 63 when i joined the Miller Bros band.Sam and Leon Gibbs who went by the name Sam and Leon Miller had quit and were booking the band.Western swing was starting to die out at that time.Guess i was born a little too late.For any one who might have know them Leon is stll teaching fiddle and Sam died some time back.Last time i saw Dutch the drummer was over 13 years ago.Don't know if he is still living or not.Jerry Byler passed away years ago.Sam was also Bob Wills manager and booking agent.Maybe some one else will see this and have more up date.Thannks.Tracy

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 14 Jun 2004 4:04 am

Tracy, I take it you weren't part of the Miller Brothers spin-off band, Jim McGraw and His Western Sundowners?

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 14 Jun 2004 5:18 pm

Jason.No i never worked for Jim.The Miller Bros band was like Bob Wills band when it came to musicians.There were many different ones.Tracy

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 14 Jun 2004 5:27 pm

Jason.Don't know yet if my last comments got posted or not.But after thnking it over i believe it was Jim Mc Graw i worked with in the 60s after the Miller Bros band broke up.IF i recall,he was from Co.Been a long time.ago.lol.Tracy

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 14 Jun 2004 6:21 pm

Jason.Having trouble and not sure my last posts worked.After thinking about it for a while i believe i did work for Jim Mc Graw a few years after the Miller Bros band broke up.He hed played bass in the Miller Bros band for a while also if i remember correctly.Tracy

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 14 Jun 2004 8:58 pm

Jasom.I will try again.MY shift has been locking up and may have been on when i entered my pass word.From what b0b e mailed me i bet thats what happeed.Any ways,yes i did Work for Jim McGraw a few years after the Miller Bros band broke up.Think i had a senior moment,but it finally came bact to me.Been a long time ago.Suppose you know Jim also played bass for a while in the M.B.band.Tracy

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 15 Jun 2004 3:47 pm

Here's a link to a Miller Brothers story I related several years back. Thought it was worth remembering; about 3/4 of the way down the page by me.
[http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Ar ... 13414.html[/URL]

Well, the link doesn't work. The thread is called Have You Ever Worked A Rough Club started by Vern Kendrick in Bar Chatter which is an achchive location. My Miller Brothers reply was 16 April 2001 08:33PM.

Regards, Paul

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 15 June 2004 at 04:49 PM.][This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 15 June 2004 at 05:01 PM.][This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 17 June 2004 at 08:52 AM.]

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 16 Jun 2004 6:34 am

Thanks guys, I appreciate the Miller Bros. stories, maybe one day there'll be a decent compilation CD released on the band.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 16 Jun 2004 9:10 am

Here's that link Paul
what a great thread (shudder !)

http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20011227-1-013414.html [This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 16 June 2004 at 10:11 AM.]