Something To Harp On...

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 14 Oct 2002 11:57 am

I have never had the good fortune to get up close to a harp so I don't know beans about one but I want to. I read somewhere that they have pedals on them. Could someone please provide me with a little enlightenment as to how the pedals work and in what manner they raise (lower...) string(s)......

Regards, Paul

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Oct 2002 12:45 pm

Here's how I've understood it, but I might be oversimplifying:

A double action pedal harp is tuned to a B diatonic scale. The 7 pedals raise strings in octaves. The pedals have two "notches" - one at the half-step point and the other at the full step.

So, if you set all of the pedals to the first notch, you have a C diatonic scale. Then you can release some pedals to get flat keys, or push some pedals to the full-step point for sharp keys. Playing seriously chromatic music requires more continuous use of the pedals.

Somebody please correct me if anything I said is wrong.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Oct 2002 1:19 pm

Here's a link: click here

Leroy Riggs · Post by **Leroy Riggs** » 14 Oct 2002 2:30 pm

According to the link in the above b0b reply...

the pedal on the far right of the harp is the "A" pedal. When this pedal is in the highest of its three notches, all the "A" strings on the harp will sound as "A" flat.

I wonder how close the A strings return to A? It is pulling a lot of strings down!

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 14 Oct 2002 2:55 pm

the pedal on the far right of the harp is the "A" pedal

c'mon---who's gonna say it........?

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 14 Oct 2002 3:04 pm

btw---on the harp I was able to examine close-up years ago, the changer was not a string puller as we are familiar with, but rather, as the article alludes to, a rotating disc that engages a nut in a new position. Picture a 'hook 'em horns' two finger salute. Surround the string with the two fingers. Now rotate the wrist 95 degrees. You have now engaged the string and created a new nut (or bridge).

And cheered on the team in a new and exciting way. Rah rah.

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Of all the instruments I've ever met, steel included, the concert harp is the most difficult one I can conceive of to play with any degree of real dexterity beyond sound effects or ambient cliche. Some people have risen to the challenge but I can't say I've ever heard harp played in such a way as to 'make it sound easy'---a sort a unit of measurement I use to rate virtuosity. When I hear a harpist trying to cook, I can hear the sweat on the brow, so to speak.

Better them than me. No thanks[This message was edited by Jon Light on 14 October 2002 at 04:12 PM.]

Tom Mortensen · Post by **Tom Mortensen** » 14 Oct 2002 4:43 pm

Does that make it the "Day" set-up?

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tombleu.com

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 14 Oct 2002 5:07 pm

Tom,
The "A" pedal on the right I think would make the Emmons setup(somebody had to say it).I looked at one during an old home tour,but did'nt have time to comprihend how the pedals worked.Harpo Marx was as good as I've heard.
Bill

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Bill Ford[This message was edited by Bill Ford on 14 October 2002 at 06:08 PM.]

Tom Mortensen · Post by **Tom Mortensen** » 14 Oct 2002 6:23 pm

Bill,
I'm a thinkin' Jimmy Day was the C-B-A guy.
But who's counting.

My good friend plays Harp but is a "no-peddler". I have watched her play many times and I just don't get it.

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tombleu.com

[This message was edited by Tom Mortensen on 14 October 2002 at 07:35 PM.]

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 14 Oct 2002 6:51 pm

b0b: Thanks for the post and the link. That is what I was wanting to find out. Now if I get one, would I send it to Mike Cass or Johnny Cox for pedal service ?? I'm kidding !! It was just a question that needed asking....

Regards, Paul

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 14 Oct 2002 7:03 pm

A double action pedal harp is tuned to a B diatonic scale.

Actually, the way I heard it was, it's tuned to Cb, which of course is B to the rest of us. As noted, each pedal has three positions, a half step raise and a full step raise. So if all the pedals are in the middle, the diatonic tuning is C.

Each pedal then raises or lowers one of the notes in each octave, like all of the Ds become D# (Eb) or Db.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, all of the Cs are black strings and all of the Fs are red or something like that. the rest of them are plain gut.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 14 Oct 2002 7:18 pm

How are they on 'cabinet drop'?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Oct 2002 7:55 pm

It appears to be a single raise, single lower instrument. Primitive by pedal steel standards.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 14 Oct 2002 9:09 pm

Probably a student model. Can ya change the setup on it?

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 14 Oct 2002 9:18 pm

Do we have a string hystorisis problem?

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Roger Kelly · Post by **Roger Kelly** » 15 Oct 2002 5:46 am

Sounds like an all pull too.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 15 Oct 2002 5:54 am

I have never had an opportunity to examine a harp up close....but, my first obsession with pedals was the "three pedals" on the old upright piano that was in my parents home when I was small. I don't remember what they were for.

More pedals......My uncle also had a vintage Model T Ford with three pedals, but I don't know what those pedals did either!

Do any of you "older" guys remember what the function of all those pedals were?

www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 15 October 2002 at 07:00 AM.]

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 15 Oct 2002 6:38 am

Jimmy Day...now,I'm confused I played the Day setup then switched to Emmons,added pedals,added levers,still fumblin an stumblin.Are the pedals listed abc left to right or does the "A"+ the g#s "B"+ the Bs "C"+ the E&B??????

Model "T" pedals
How do the Foot Pedals operate? Answer No. 10
The first one toward the left operates the clutch. When pressed forward the clutch pedal engages the low speed. When half-way forward the clutch is in neutral (i.e., disconnected from the driving mechanism of the rear wheels), and the releasing of this pedal engages the high-speed clutch. The center pedal operates the reverse. The right-hand pedal operates the transmission brake.
There were no tunings listed!!!!!!

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Bill Ford[This message was edited by Bill Ford on 15 October 2002 at 07:57 AM.][This message was edited by Bill Ford on 15 October 2002 at 08:02 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Oct 2002 8:40 am

Actually, the basic concept of the double action pedal harp was the starting point for my F Diatonic tuning (see link in my sig below). I tune the guitar to a diatonic scale, and use pedals to raise and lower notes by half steps to change the key signature of the entire scale.

Of course, bringing a steel bar in the picture adds a whole new dimension that harp players never dreamed of!

Another interesting difference is that on the harp, the highest note of a grip is played with the thumb. I've often wondered how a steel would feel if it were tuned backwards. The softer tone of the thumb pick on the higher strings might be pretty cool.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 16 October 2002 at 09:42 AM.]

Lem Smith · Post by **Lem Smith** » 16 Oct 2002 9:21 pm

Bill,
Emmons setup is ABC, as your sitting at the steel. "A" raises 5 & 10, "B" raises 3 & 6, and "C" raises 4 & 5.

The Day setup is just the opposite, CBA.

Lem

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 17 Oct 2002 7:16 am

Do harp players ever use their pedals to bend notes while playing? (Personally I've never heard or seen that done on the harp.) If they don't do it, why not? Is the mechanism too stiff to be used while playing?

It seems like harp players use their pedals the way the pedals on the old Multi-Kords were intended to be used: to give new tunings rather than to create "licks".

If that's so, aren't harpists missing out on one of the great advantages of having pedals?

-GV

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 17 Oct 2002 8:33 am

I have a friend here named Ellen Teppar who has lots of pedal harps (gut strings and steel strings) and plays incredibly. We played together once and the pedal steel and pedal harp sound great together (like angels singing, people said). As I remember from her five minute harp lesson, Greg is right that they only use the pedals to set the instrument up for different keys, not for licks while playing. With no pedals engaged it is Cb with a double raise and no lower. When you get the right strings pedaled (and locked in) for your key, the scale notes of the key are easy to find. Chromatics are difficult or impossible. But I'm getting confused now, because you can set individual strings with levers at the top of the string, and the pedals only work on certain strings. Maybe you set up for the scale with the levers, and use the pedals to get the chromatics. Guess I needed more than a five minute lesson.

The gut string harp is played with your finger pads, and not your nails. But the steel string harp is played with your nails and requires a very different hand position. In both cases the high strings are close to you (and played with the right hand), and the low strings are farther from you (and played with your left hand). This seemed ass-backwards to me from the standpoint of any other stringed instrument.

Incidently, men make good harp players, because of their bigger, stronger hands. But for some reason, mostly women play the harp. Guess it's the image and the soft sweet sound.

John Kavanagh · Post by **John Kavanagh** » 17 Oct 2002 9:09 am

I've heard some modern harp music where they pluck a string and then hit the pedal. Boo- wah.. The sound dies out pretty fast, though. The only option is a half-step move, or I suppose two half-steps in a row, though I've never heard that done. They do use harmonics a lot, usually palm harmonics I think.

The other thing is that they have limitations on "strummed" chords. No simple triads, for instance, unless they block notes with one hand while strumming with the other but they can do 6ths, and some 7th chords. For the big sweeps and strumming effects, you're almost forced to use colour chords; even using enharmonics you have to have five notes per octave. For C, for instance, you'd have to add a 9th and a sixth or seventh - C D E Fb G A# Bb C for a C9 for instance. You could go G A B# C if you wanted the C6+9 instead.

Harpo Marx apparently tuned the harp "wrong" - I'd like to know how because I like his playing.

The older chromatic harps were only "single action" - one raise per string, and you'd tune the open strings to an Eb or Ab scale.
There also used to be various double row types, chromatics without pedals. One was a sort of doubleneck, with two sets of strings intersecting at about a 30° angle, and you plucked around the intersection point so
you could reach all the strings. I suppose they were tuned a half-step apart, or perhaps like white-and-black keys.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 17 Oct 2002 10:04 am

Incidently, men make good harp players, because of their bigger, stronger hands. But for some reason, mostly women play the harp. Guess it's the image and the soft sweet sound.

Paul "Spike" Featherstone played harp in the Spade Cooley orchestra with Joaquin Murphey.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 17 Oct 2002 10:21 am

Even the Vienna Philharmonic couldn't find a dude to play harp for them. Ever since the orchestra was founded, they hired a chick as temporary help so they could keep the "No Girls Allowed" sign on the clubhouse. Then a couple of years ago, political correctness prevailed and they had to let her join.