Enharmonic keys in written music

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 17 Sep 2001 12:23 pm

I have just read the thread about enharmonic keys in written music. A lot of stuff in there, but I don't think anyone mentioned the fact that every key signature has an enharmonic equivalent. Thus Bb (two flats) can be written as A# (ten sharps.)but needless to say it never is because of the difficulty in reading. Here's a Question for you theory buffs out there. There is one note in the chromatic scale that can be named in two ways, which is it? ( All the others can have three names)

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Sep 2001 12:44 pm

You can't have a key signature with more than 7 flats or sharps, because there are only 7 lines+spaces in an octave of written music. That's why A# isn't a "key signature" - the word "signature" implies written music.

As for your riddle, I'm stumped. Here's what I think the names of the notes are (including all enharmonics): <pre>B# C
C# Db
D
D# Eb
E Fb
E# F
F# Gb
G
G# Ab
A
A# Bb
B Cb</pre>I don't see any notes with "three names".

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 17 Sep 2001 1:33 pm

Bobby....the first note in your example list can be written as B# C Dbb. If you apply this to the rest of your list you'll get the answer. I'll write you a few bars in G#(8 sharps ) or A# (10 sharps)any time.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Sep 2001 2:21 pm

Now I get it. <pre>B# C Dbb
B## C# Db
C## D Ebb
D# Eb Fbb
D## E Fb
E# F Gbb
E## F# Gb
F## G Abb
G# Ab
G## A Bbb
A# Bb Cbb
A## B Cb </pre>

John Paul Jones · Post by **John Paul Jones** » 17 Sep 2001 7:04 pm

What purpose does this serve??
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John Paul Jones

GFI U-12
Evans FET500 amp
ART T2 effects
HM-4 harmony machine

[This message was edited by John Paul Jones on 17 September 2001 at 08:06 PM.]

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 18 Sep 2001 9:59 am

Bobby....yes, you've got that bit. Now for the enharmonic key signatures. With your permission I will email you a page from a text book showing the 12 major keys and their(12) enharmonic equivalents. It's not a pretty sight, but fear not, the explanation on the following pages is not difficult to grasp, and I can let you have those later if you wish. We are talking music theory here, not IMHO. In reply to John Paul, I will say that this stuff is very useful, some people would say essential, for anyone writing musical arrangements, from piano solo to full orchestra, (classics or jazz) and every thing in between. It can even prove helpful to us steel players, note that the original thread on this subject, entitled "The key of Gb/F#" was started by David Pennybaker, who told us that he had been transcribing a recording,and was undecided about the key.Knowledge is the only answer in a situation like that.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 18 Sep 2001 10:22 am

Hey John Paul,

The short answer to your question is:

Not much.

Bob

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 18 Sep 2001 10:54 am

Why is it that when some one wants to talk about something interesting to them with regards to music, we get the experts in here trying to flame them out ? Surely that is not much more of a service then the one they are complaing about. A Forum is considered
to be an open area where you may post your ideas and thoughts without prejudice or having someone else look down their noses at you. Heck, this is a Steel Guitar Forum but you won't see me flamming someone else because you don't sound Like Emmons or Chalker !! Just because you know more about one thing or another shouldn't give you cause to belittle or slur someone else. You may have stature in the music theory arena but around here, if you don't have the stature of BE or CC or DJ or WM or PF, you don't have full credetials either. Until then, let sleeping dogs lie ! bOb; I shouldn't have to be saying this !! Paul

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Sep 2001 12:43 pm

Bruce, I'll take your word for it. Don't email me the pages. I don't really have any use for music in keys with more than 7 sharps or 7 flats. Nothing in any of my song books is written that way.

While it might be valid music theory, it is used so infrequently as to be inconsequential, in my opinion. I've been reading printed music since I was a kid, and I've never run across a key signature with more than 7 sharps and flats. But if you say they exist, I won't argue with you.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 18 Sep 2001 2:11 pm

Bobby, I am in total agreement with you on all that. I just tried to add a bit to all the other stuff in a very long thread,which did contain several requests for information.

kyle reid · Post by **kyle reid** » 18 Sep 2001 3:04 pm

John Paul! The purpose of It, is to bring knowledgable information to some players that want to expand their perimeters of music, beyond the confines of playin "Dont Be Angry" & such! Yes there are some players that know a lot of this [enharmonics,key signatures, etc] unfortunately I'm not one of them, but would like to be! Therefore I soak this stuff up!

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 19 Sep 2001 12:45 pm

unfortunately I'm not one of them, but would like to be! Therefore I soak this stuff up!

That goes for me too, I'm 60 years old, but still not too old to learn something.

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John

Ray Jenkins · Post by **Ray Jenkins** » 19 Sep 2001 1:58 pm

SUSPENSION: Temporaily suspending all judgements,beliefs,assumptions and positions long enough to let them soak.
Suspending the need to talk as soon as the urge hits you.Give it time to cook.(Examine your need to talk as a clue to your own thinking process.)

LISTENING: Receptively. With a willingness to be influenced.

SPEAKING: Openly. Revealing one's doubts,insights and feelings in a way that invites others to comment.

INQURING: Into assumptions and inferences. NOTICING assumptions and inferences(yours and others)

ATTENTION TO THE PROCESS OF THOUGHT.

Now go ahead with your sharing your music knoweledge Bruce.Thanks
Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Sep 2001 2:09 pm

Geez !

I'm headed over to the G# string thread and see if those pictures of the "Lucky 7" showed up yet....

have a nice day, Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 19 September 2001 at 03:17 PM.]

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 20 Sep 2001 10:25 am

Ray ...I like that, so for you, and Kyle, John,and any other seekers after enlightenment, let me see if I can wrap this enharmonic key signature thing up. Firstly, enharmonic just means same sound, different name.I take it that we are agreed that the note a semitone up from F can be called, and written as, either Gb or F#. That applies also to a scale built on that note,(scale Gb major = scale F#major),
and also to a piece of music built around that note, or as we say "in that key". So, whether the scale, or piece, is written in Gb or F# we finish up playing the same notes. Put another way, while you are playing in Gb, you could be said to be playing in F#, or vise versa. If you agree with that, read on. Now comes the crunch! Apply that to any other note, say Ab/G# and exactly the same thing is true, the key of G# (and its key signature) exist because the key of Ab (and its key signature) exist, and vise versa. It's as simple as that! Bob's point about the number of lines and spaces was correct, but I don't think he took into account the fact that these alternative key signatures use many double sharps and flats. This makes for difficulties in reading and is the reason why (as Bob again rightly pointed out) they are seldom if ever used. A couple of points; the sum of the accidentals of any key and its enharmonic is always twelve. Eb (Key sig.three flats ) is enharmonic with D# (key sig.9 sharps) and that is something I do not wish to see! If you ever need to decide between Gb and F#, remember that guitarists like sharp keys, whereas brass and sax players are more accustomed to flat keys.Of course if you are in a busking band (no dots)it's even easier, while the rest of the guys are playing the blues in Bb, you can play along in A#, and it will sound fine. I hope that lot is understandable, I'm always ready to try again.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 21 Sep 2001 4:43 am

Bruce: Before this fades away into the sunset, let me say I've had a lot of enjoyment reading your writing/work. When I filled out the scales, both sharp and flat into the double flat/sharp signatures, I too was intrigued by the flow and coincidences of events within the structures. I could say "Done That: Been There" but that doesn't convey the learning experience very well.

Thank you again for reopening the book for me and some very interesting observations and challenges.

John Floyd: I'm pushin' the heck out of 70 and I'm having as much fun as ever !!

Ray: You should have added one more item to your list: MANNERS !!

Regards, Paul[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 21 September 2001 at 05:47 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 21 Sep 2001 8:52 am

Ray, Ray,........you are appealing to peoples common consideration and courtesy.....get real, it ain't gona happen!

Ray Jenkins · Post by **Ray Jenkins** » 21 Sep 2001 11:31 am

Your right Gene,but heck far, ain't it worth a try.

Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

John Kavanagh · Post by **John Kavanagh** » 7 Oct 2001 11:53 am

THe only time you might use a key signature with more than 7 sharps is... well, you wouldn't. I mean who would? It's just for the sake of the theoretical jones involved.

BUT if you were in the key of, say, C# minor and did a section in the parallel major key, you might call it C# major (rather than the simpler Db) for the sake of consistency. This does happen in the 19th-century classical piano repertoire, since the "black key" keys are fun to play on the piano, though still hard to read.

So, if you were cruising along in C# major and had a passage in the dominant of C#, that would be G# major, with an Fdouble sharp as the seventh degree. I'm not going to go looking through books, but if Beethoven hasn't done this at least once Liszt or Rachmaninoff probably has.

But you wouldn't START in G#. If that was going to be your overall main key, or even stay the tonal centre for a long enough section that it was worthwhile writing it as a new key signature, you'd call it Ab. That's purely a convenience of notation, which has the same relationship to the sound and soul of music that spelling does to speaking, i.e. almost none.

Most people who put notes on paper have usually tried to follow the logic of musical grammar, without being perversely consistent, and use the simpler notation most of the time.