Picking Keys

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 22 Sep 2000 8:58 am

In another thread, Bill Crook raised this interesting point:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I ask a noted piano player about the key of B and why so many use that dumb key signature, He said "It's due to the fact that it's more pleasing to the ears"

I said I need a better reason than that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, I don't think I'm an authority on all of this, but I've run into this situation lots of times.
I know alot of you guys roll your eyes at the piano players. Sometimes I do too. But they do have a point, on occasion

Duke Ellington always confused interviewers who referred to him as a "piano player" by telling them that the Orchestra was his instrument. His wizardly command of the orchestra voicings changed 20th century music forever.
Part of that command came from an acute knowledge of registers. And, of course, as a composer, Duke used the piano to compose upon partly because it reflected the tremendous range of the sum total of the instruments in his orchestra (and beyond).
Duke talked frequently about the "nine registers of the piano". I'm not sure if this was an original conception of his, but he certainly demonstrated it more than anyone.
Basically, the thought was that the different "zones" on the piano produce different timbral nuances. In some instances, it was as simple as deciding how low a phrase/chord voicing could be pitched before it got muddy. In more complex examples, it involving pitting one "zone" against another for the proper effect.
Anyone who has played improvisational
piano understands that there is a "zone" for bass notes (above which, they sound dumb) and yet another "zone" for chords. Duke could walk on the razor edge of the lower extremity of those zones, with dense block chords, and produce the required effect. Some of the dissonance was introduced and amplified by the depth of the voicing.
These concepts were passed along to the horn sections of his orchestra through his writings. (Dig the sax sections doing drop block voicings, and other dissonant diminished scale movements!)
The thing about that is, if you're not extremely experienced at it, you can get too deep in the keys and end up in the mud. Someone used to playing a grand piano might be more inclined to walk the lower edge
of the zone and get away with it, partly because of the clarity of the instrument. I know I have had it happen to me, while playing an upright. I go off the end of the pier, and into the mud, doing things that would sound fantastic on my grand at home. That's my fault. It's a subtlety of the instrument, and a lesson I've learned.
Regarding the choosing of keys, I've seen it demonstrated to me how moving a tune from C major to Db major can make it come alive. Seems silly, but it's true... and I'm speaking of instrumental music too - not adjusting for singers.
I've learned alot from guys who see the "big picture". It's a deep well.
Anyone craving an example of Duke at his pianistic and harmonically-groundbreaking peak should check out his "Piano Reflections" cd which includes the Blanton/Ellington duets, as well as examples of concepts he used which were way, way ahead of their time. (e.g. Phrygian harmonies on "Melancholia", etc)
-John
Gotta tune this thing - gimmee an M, would ya ?

[This message was edited by John Steele on 22 September 2000 at 10:03 AM.]

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 22 Sep 2000 9:11 am

Good post, John.

(I still hate playing in the key of B, though

). There's just something about how fingers seem to "fit" better in certain keys (C and Eb are easiest for me).

I suppose this is less of a problem on a guitar, though. Except that the fret-spacing changes for different keys.

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Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 22 Sep 2000 10:06 am

Ah Ha ! But how do you explain "The saddest of all keys" - D minor.

Bob

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 22 Sep 2000 11:11 am

John,
You are entirely too intelligent. Could you please dumb this down for me and try again?

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 22 Sep 2000 11:54 am

Could you please dumb this down for me and try again?

Ahem. I think what he's trying to say is:

1) If you play it too high, it sounds like crap

2) If you play it too low, it sounds like crap

3) If you play it in just the right key, it's just "oh, so sweet".

How's that?

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http://members.xoom.com/dpennybaker/index.htm

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 22 Sep 2000 11:56 am

Ah Ha ! But how do you explain "The saddest of all keys" - D minor.

I don't know. But my personal favorite is the key of G-demolished.

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http://members.xoom.com/dpennybaker/index.htm

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Sep 2000 12:04 pm

Prior to the very recent adoption of true equal temperament, keys had different intervals and hence a different "sound" on the piano. Many acoustic pianists still use other, more authentic temperaments to play pre-20th century music, because the composers were very aware of the temperaments in use and chose their keys accordingly.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 22 Sep 2000 1:08 pm

Prior to the very recent adoption of true equal temperament

Just for clarification, what do you mean by "very recent"?

I'm unaware of any changes in equal temperament in my lifetime. (I'm 36). I'd hate to think I missed something.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://members.xoom.com/dpennybaker/index.htm

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 22 Sep 2000 1:33 pm

Not THAT recent.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 22 Sep 2000 3:44 pm

I must say, I have had a personal experience with the Key of B.
The club hired me to play with their band with my Gibson 6 pedal Electra-Harp, which they advertised about this "unusual instrument".
It was for several nights a week. I setup and started playing and the Piano player said key of "B".
I said ok, (the guy is pulling my leg to see if I can do it)
The next 2 songs, Key of B again!. I always played all the old standards in their original keys.
I said, "what gives with this B?".
He said, "that's the only key I can play in"
I walked off the stage and said to my Brother-in-law who drove down the 40 miles with me, "I'm out of here".
He said, "calm down Al, we are here and you might as well finish the night, besides look at the money".
So I stayed, then you know what. For the money , I played with that guy for a couple of months.
Do you know why he played in B? Because it is all black keys, lots of sharps, and he said it was easy for him to play that way . No matter what black key he hit, it was usually right!!!!
That is one story on the Key of B!...al

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 22 Sep 2000 4:11 pm

Irving Berlin, who was no slouch, had a special piano made so that he could play in other keys than F# without playing in other keys than F#. I bet that mechanism made psg look positively simple.

[This message was edited by ebb on 22 September 2000 at 05:13 PM.]

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 22 Sep 2000 4:37 pm

I don't know about kybds but I understand that the electronic ones have a button that can transpose the songs to the keys the musician is most familiar with. All white keys is the key of "C" and as such regardless of where he may strike a note as long as it is a white key, he is "in tune" notewise.

IMHO, I believe the key of "B" for some reason or the other, appeals to the ear more than most other keys, perhaps because it is rarely used as "the key" for many songs therefore, the listener is not as quickly de-sensitized to the sounds. Bluegrass musicians certainly find it an attractive key. They like to "Capo" at the 4th fret of their D-28s and D-45s so they can play in "B" a lot.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 22 Sep 2000 5:17 pm

Yup Kenny, My Roland D-50 will do that. Although I have no problem with any key, there are certain ones that sound better to me in certain types of music than others. The key I despise the most is Eb. Don't know why though.

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Ingo Mamczak · Post by **Ingo Mamczak** » 22 Sep 2000 7:12 pm

A great post and thread , thanks John

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 22 Sep 2000 9:29 pm

I think my C6 playing always sounds best in the key of F. I dunno why. Do you?

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 22 Sep 2000 10:51 pm

Bob Hoffnar,
A music prof once told me that D minor was the saddest of all keys 'cause that's the key Earl Scruggs wrote "Nashville Blues" in.

Who coined that phrase, anyway?
Jim Cohen,
B = Cb

Kenny D. mentioned the transposer on some keyboards. They're a handy thing, but one of the downsides is that it shifts the visual zones I mentioned earlier. It's easy to play outside of the register using that feature.
Earnest, you've forgotten more about this than I'll ever know. Have you ever heard Duke's references to the 9 registers?
-John
p.s. Al M., I always like your posts, you have some great stories to tell. I have a picture you'd love. I'll share it when I have the technology. [This message was edited by John Steele on 22 September 2000 at 11:59 PM.]

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 22 Sep 2000 11:28 pm

Jim C. with your reference to "F" on C6th, I think that is my fav on C6 also, another fav on C6 is C# (1st fret). It also happens to be my fav on E9th. I think the "F" chord on the 1st fret of E9th has the best timbre and sweetest sound of any position on the E9th neck. (of course I play a P/P)

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kd...and the beat goes on...

erik · Post by **erik** » 23 Sep 2000 2:35 am

Being a Baritone i sometimes find it difficult to pick a good key for a song i'm writing. Many times i find it impossible to get the right chords in the lower register of a standard guitar, which causes me to have to play higher up the neck. I don't always like that sound. It seems to me that the most pleasing registers for chord work are best suited to a tenor singer - play low, sing high - better than play high, sing low. Yes, you could use different inversions, but they just don't sound as good to my ears.

I also cheat and change keys on my keyboard to use white keys. In fact it is very useful for songwriting or just singing to be able to play back a sequence and change keys on the fly. Certain keys will change the entire feel of the tune. But then you have to change chord inversions to make musical sense.

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 23 Sep 2000 7:36 am

I also cheat and change keys on my keyboard to use white keys.

Shhhhhhh! You're giving away our secrets.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 23 Sep 2000 8:43 am

Jim Cohen,
I've noticed that also on my E9th tuning. I'd guess the reason we like the sound of F is because of the fuller range of highs and lowes that can be heard. Bass sounds can be heard much better than treble sounds. The next time you're in a place where the juke box is playing, get as far away from it as you can and sometimes all you hear is the bass. The highs just don't carry.

Bob Carlson

Uff Da

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 23 Sep 2000 9:50 pm

To use a country perspective, I sang "Crazy Arms" for years in the key of E, and didn't enjoy it as much as other Ray Price songs.One day, for some sub-conscious reason,I decided to sing it in the key of F.
It was like I had learned a new song. Suddenly the song had new depth and meaning.I now enjoy singing it.
All the best,-Andy

PS John, do you still call your band "Five Easy Pieces"?[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 23 September 2000 at 10:52 PM.]

Dayna Wills · Post by **Dayna Wills** » 23 Sep 2000 11:17 pm

Erik,
A lot of the female tenors sing in the key of B. Tanya Tucker, Barbara Mandrell...
A is muddy and Bb loses it's edge, musically and vocally on some styles of music. Sometimes B would be perfect for me, but I was warned under pain of death never to call it. So, if you can't play in Bb it ain't my fault.

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Dayna Wills · Post by **Dayna Wills** » 23 Sep 2000 11:18 pm

Erik,
I don't mean YOU personally, I mean musicians in general.

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John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 24 Sep 2000 9:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
John, do you still call your band Five Easy Pieces ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*sigh* No. I thought it was a very clever name. Unfortunately people thought we were a Chippendale show. I'd starve

Another Canadian folkie Fred Eaglesmith had a band called the "Flying Squirrels" (with Willie P. Bennett). He finally ditched the name after getting a call from a circus one day. They wanted to hire the squirrel act, to go on right after the dancing bears.

-John

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 24 Sep 2000 9:52 am

Who coined that phrase, anyway?

John

"d minor the saddest of all keys" is from the movie This is Spinal Tap, Lead guitarist Nigel Tufnel (Chris Guest)is playing the piano in an introspective moment, talking to documentary director Marty Di Bergy (Rob Reiner),showing off a 'new' composition of descending chords in Dm
a lovely composition...called 'Lick my Love Pump"....[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 24 September 2000 at 10:55 AM.]