B Strings Not Returning to Note - Help

[Paul Hutzler]

The problem I'm having is that I have 2 changes on my B strings. One change raises B to C# (pedal 1) and the other raises B to D (LKV). I'd like to be able to use both changes simultaneously --- I mean go from the B string's D right to C# but the problem is the C# is a little sharp when I do go directly from the LKV to the Pedal 1 without letting the string return to open first. Any advice on how I can make these changes work together? It's a Carter S10, E9.

[Earnest Bovine]

I also have the string 5 B to D pulls on my steels. I think that all steel guitars have that problem, to wildly varying extents. Even on the same guitar, the problem may exist on string 5 but not string 4, or vice versa.
(It doesn't matter much on string 4 because you would rarely release the C pedal with the F lever engaged, and need that E# in tune. But you can test it if you are nurdy enough.)
I can't make the problem go away, but I sometimes work around it by partially releasing the A pedal for an instant, or briefly bumping the lever that lowers the B strings, as I release the long raise, but that's not easy to get right

[Paul Hutzler]

Ah okay. Yeah, I tested the 4th string F# raise and the F raise in the same way--- and sure enough the F is a little sharper if you engage the F# first. Thanks for the reply, Mr. Bovine.

[Lee Baucum]

Hysteresis?

[Earnest Bovine]

No, this is not hysteresis (effect lagging behind the cause).
On the steel a good example of hysteresis is our E stings coming back flat after releasing the lever that raised them, and/or sharp after releasing the lever that lowered them.

The hysterical effect (so named for a reason that would not be tolerated today) is this: In the case of releasing the F lever and allowing the string to loosen from E to F, the tenson on the vibrating part decreases right away, but the tension of the non-vibrating part which is between the nut and the tuning peg stays a little higher because the string does not move all the way back over the roller. The little bit of higher tension on the left makes lower tension and lower pitch on the right (vibrating) part. And the opposite happens with the D lever. In other words, hysteresis causer over-return of pitch.

The problem that Paul asked about is under-return of pitch to the C# on the B string when dropped from D.
Here is my analysis: You mash the A pedal. Both B strings raise to C#. Then you hit that lever or pedal that raises string 5 up to D. When you do that, there is no longer any tension on the pull-rod that pulls string 5. So the cross shaft that holds the pullers for strings 5 and 10 feels different forces, and it can move a tiny bit in its bearings, twisting or pulling a little further than it could when its pullers were pulling two strings. When you release the D note to C#, the A pedal's cross shaft stays in its new position in its bearings and the pitch stays high.

Here is another way to see it: mash the A pedal and note the exact tuning of the C# on your string 10. Then, engage the lever or pedal that pulls string 5 up to D. You will see the pitch of string 10 go up a few cents. This shows that taking tension off of the string 5 puller allows the A pedal's cross shaft to move a little bit. And that string 10 C# will stay a few cents higher after you let D back down to C# on string 5.

I think that if the cross shaft fits very snug in its bearings, then this undesirable effect will be minimized. Some cross shafts happen to be snugger than others and that is why this effect is worse on some guitars, and even on different strings on the same guitar.

[Paul Hutzler]

I think you're correct. Or at least , i ran the test and it worked out as you expected. I'm a little confused on your use of the word "bearing" as my cross shafts are held in by a plastic male part into a plastic female part. Not much of a bearing. But i guess a bushing. You're just using bearing in the general sense i suppose. Just for the sake of troubleshooting fun, if a guy had a lot of time and money, he could press a couple of actual roller bearings into the cross shaft instead of the female bushing and maybe that would fix the return issue?

[Steve Lipsey]

My new Williams guitar has some obvious play in the cross shaft bushings, unlike my older ones, so I asked about it. Bill Rudolph says that this is intentional - although my older guitars work fine with tight tolerances - but perhaps if not kept absolutely clean and lubed they will bind:
------------------------------------------
From Bill:
"As far as the “play”/”slop” in everything, that’s normal.
The minute we make something tight, there’s binding involved.
The guitar will play just fine.
In fact,
The nickname for all the play/slop in the Sho~Bud guitars was “Sho~Bud slop”.
Best,
Bill"

[Earnest Bovine]

..t i guess a bushing. You're just using bearing in the general sense i suppose.

Yes

Just for the sake of troubleshooting fun, if a guy had a lot of time and money, he could press a couple of actual roller bearings into the cross shaft instead of the female bushing and maybe that would fix ..

I would welcome any ideas, but for me this one of those things that is probably not worth the time it would take to fix it.

And of course my analysis may be all wrong.

[Paul Hutzler]

I guess they DO make cross shafts with needle bearings. If anyone has a guitar with actual bearings on the cross shafts and wants to run a test to for me that'd be great.
Test:
1. engage F lever and check the 4th string F note's exact pitch
2. now engage the C pedal and the F lever at the same time
3. take your foot off the C pedal while still leaving the F lever engaged.
4. Is the F note a little sharp of where it was when you ran the test above in step 1? If yes, then maybe the problem is NOT the cross shaft? If the F note is the same in both tests then maybe bearings on the cross shaft takes care of this problem.

[Earnest Bovine]

4. Is the F note a little sharp of where it was when you ran the test above in step 1?

And check the pitch on string 8 too. If my theory is correct, then mashing and releasing the C pedal, (which raises string 4 but not string and releasing it will result in a higher pitch one the F on both string 4 and sting 8.

[Donny Hinson]

The cross shaft bearings aren't the problem, and the rotational movement of the shafts is so slight that needle or ball bearings in the application are probably more of a disadvantage than they are an advantage. You didn't say exactly how much the discrepancy was, but the slight discrepancy in the tuning of the two notes is due to hysteresis, and you should be able to compensate for that using the bar. If it's severe, there may be a problem with friction at the nut, so make sure the strings are pulling absolutely straight and the rollers are free and lubricated.

[Bobby D. Jones]

I have never played or worked on a Carter steel.
But there are 3 different things that can cause, Or add to the problem of strings not returning proper.

1st. If the B strings 5-10 are not perfect aligned crossing the nut roller, Can put side drag on the nut roller and not return to open. (Solution carefully wind string on key shaft, So no side drag on nut roller).

2nd. Proper care of nut rollers. (Make sure sides of nut rollers are perfect smooth, Check slots for burrs and smooth sides if necessary. Polish nut roller shaft with 0000 steel wool to remove any roughness. proper lube on nut rollers.)
3rd. Cross shaft plastic bearing inserts. It seems from heat and age they will shrink in length, But swell in diameter, And shrink inside diameter. Which will put drag on cross shaft returning to open position. ( To get proper cross shaft fit, Plastic bushing/bearing may have to be reamed out for proper fit on cross shafts).

Good Luck finding the problem and solution, Happy Steelin.

[Paul Hutzler]

Wow, thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.

[J D Sauser]

Same phenomenon being discussed here now too: viewtopic.php?p=3270722#p3270722

... J-D,