Replacing small tuning machines on old Rick

[John Keefe]

Hello Steelers,

I bought a Rick Silver Hawaii'an recently. I like its quirks, but would like to replace the hodge-podge of tuning machines. However, they are just 0.20" in diameter. There are replacements of course, but they are larger and I would rather not drill out the headstock.

Do any of you have a source for these small machines, or a creative solution?

Thanks very much

John Keefe
New York City

[Glenn Wilde]

Congratulations, those are very cool guitars. Are the tuners the same on those as the Bakelites? If so, look at the Waverly's, they're expensive but I think a guitar like that deserves them.
Have you looked inside it for newspaper to date it?

[Tim Whitlock]

From what I have read, no one makes a tuner that will fit the old Ricks, and finding a set of originals is extremely unlikely. My SH's original tuners are ok but not great and replacing them has occurred to me. If I did, I'd probably install a good quality set from Stewmac.

[Rick Aiello]

Use a small round file and open up the holes a bit with … just a little will allow the new tuner peg to pass through the hole …

Works on Bakelites too … way safer than drilling

[Gary Meixner]

John,

Check with forum member Jim Duffer. He has posted in the past, selling vintage tuning machines for Rickenbacher guitars. I bought a single tuning machine from him to replace a broken peg on my Rickenbacher B6.

If you decide to replace all the pegs with modern tuning machines, I found that in addition to the original string posts being slightly smaller than modern pegs, the holes for the mounting screws don't line up exactly either. They are close but not a drop in replacement.

Gary

[Michael Kiese]

Howzit John,

I'll echo Rick Aiello's suggestion. Just find a good set of tuners that will fit, and ream out the holes a bit if you must. Get the vintage slotted head type tuners if you can.

If you're not comfortable with this, find a guitar tech who is. It ain't rocket science.

The reason I suggest getting some vintage slotted head tuners is because those are my favorite. They're locking-type tuners so the strings won't slip, and you don't have to snip off the end of your strings. No chance of poking your fingers. Also super easy and quick to restring. Gives your headstock a cleaner look as well.

As far as altering a vintage instrument is concerned, here's my take...I'm a player, not a collector. These instruments are made to be played, not collected and resold (which is what occurs 90% of the time). There are tons of collectors who horde their old steels until they die, and then all their steels are sold off at estate sales for cheap. Or their adult children sell them for cheap. Then they pop up on reverb at high prices. That's how it all really works.

There are people all over the country who have made careers off of bidding for things at estate sales all around the country and reselling them.

I have witnessed many heavily modified, and god awful looking Frypans still being listed and SOLD on Reverb for $5,000.

Your chances of buying them from a player, much less an original owner, is super low. You're most likely buying them from a reseller.

At the end of the day, these instruments are in some cases almost 100 years old. They will need some TLC and some repair.

I'd say just make it 100% playable again, and ENJOY them.

They certainly aren't being enjoyed and played sitting in a storage container for years, along with 50 other vintage steels.

If anything, those of us who are players should be going to these estate sales to get these great steels for cheap.

Sorry for going a bit long, but bottom line: replace the tuners with the best new tuners that you can find and don't think twice. Play it and enjoy it.

EDIT: I added a picture of my ACE's headstock. I'm lucky that this particular ACE still had all its original tuners, and they're the slot-head type. So they're actually VINTAGE, vintage style tuners. lol

[Jack Hanson]

Count me among those who gets a kick out of bidding on basket cases and making them playable once again. And rarely -- if ever -- has it been a profitable endeavor. As far as "player grade" instruments are concerned, I would much rather put a few hundred $$$ into an old Ric or Gibson or Kalamazoo, than to purchase a new cookie-cutter instrument produced in an Asian sweatshop by twelve year-old girls, and then spending more $$$ than it's worth on the components to make it playable and sounding borderline acceptable. But that's just me...

[Michael Kiese]

Count me among those who gets a kick out of bidding on basket cases and making them playable once again. And rarely -- if ever -- has it been a profitable endeavor. As far as "player grade" instruments are concerned, I would much rather put a few hundred $$$ into an old Ric or Gibson or Kalamazoo, than to purchase a new cookie-cutter instrument produced in an Asian sweatshop by twelve year-old girls, and then spending more $$$ than it's worth on the components to make it playable and sounding borderline acceptable. But that's just me...

You make a great point there, Jack.

There's a model 59 Rick w/ horseshoe pup on Reverb for $550 right now. Probably only needs to recharge the horseshoes, and a little DeOxit in the vol and tone pots, and it's back to 100%. Worst case is change out the pots.

These steels are so simple, and they sound great.

https://reverb.com/item/85780140-ricken ... -and-black

[Jack Hanson]

There's an affordable Ric "Ace" within driving distance that I've had my eye on. But it's probably not in the cards, since my old hockey mom van needs some urgent repairs that will likely deplete my guitar budget for the foreseeable future. And I've no shortage of rescues (or decent originals) at my disposal. But alas...

[John Keefe]

Hello Steelers,

Thanks for all those ideas.

The story behind my buying this guitar is a great one, entailing the NYC subway to the borough of Queens, a sheaf of small bills, a Scandinavian beauty queen from decades ago, and a possible undiscovered Stradivarius. But it's a long digression.

This Hawai'ian plays really well, and doesn't cry out for new machines; it's just an idea. But the four different types of tuners and short stems are mildly annoying.

Rick, thanks for the round file idea; I would be scared to put a powered drill into this body. If I go ahead with this, it's what I'll do.

As for the tone management, the guitar is stuffed full of shredded newspaper. I took a sample but could not fix the date. It's old though, serial number D 722. ?? And a volume control only.

If I go ahead with the elective surgery I'll report back.

Thanks again. John Keefe

[Mike Christensen]

I agree with Jack and Mike. If you really like and want to play this guitar, take your time and put in the effort to find what will work or come close and do yourself a favor and put in a nice set of tuners. I personally feel the Ric tuners were not the greatest anyway. Happy Trails. MikeC

[Tony Oresteen]

I have restored quite a few basket case lap steels. I generally replace the tuners ( most have been missing).

If you can't tune it, you can't play it.

Get the best tuners that you can.

[Chris Clem]

Should we really be recomending that someone replace original tuners and modified their guitar to do so?....and even telling them how to do it. Have we not learned this lesson already. I spent 15 years restoring guitars for the vintage stores in LA. And way to much time restoring old Gibsons back to the
original tuners from the so called "owner improvement Grover tuners they installed (usually poorly installed)".... Did we not learn that lesson, that it was a bad idea for owners to do that?. Clean tuners real good,oil them,lube the nut, and never change the originals, they will work just fine.

[Michael Kiese]

Should we really be recomending that someone replace original tuners and modified their guitar to do so?....and even telling them how to do it. Have we not learned this lesson already. I spent 15 years restoring guitars for the vintage stores in LA. And way to much time restoring old Gibsons back to the
original tuners from the so called "owner improvement Grover tuners they installed (usually poorly installed)".... Did we not learn that lesson, that it was a bad idea for owners to do that?. Clean tuners real good,oil them,lube the nut, and never change the originals, they will work just fine.

Aloha Chris,

We're on different sides of this argument. That said, kindly allow me to push back a bit.

1) Keep in mind, these vintage steel guitars are 70-90 year old instruments. Things go bad on them. Period.
- I've seen terrible frozen pots, bent/frozen tuners, broken nuts/saddles, etc. And these are the ones that sell for $1,500+.

2) Many of these vintage steels have gone through multiple owners who have already altered them. The alterations just became part of their story.
- I've witnessed some god-awful mods on Rickenbacher frypans that still sold for $5,000 on Reverb. One had a metal plate installed ON TOP of the body (I guess as a palm rest), and had a glitter coated the back plate. IT STILL SOLD for $5,000!
- Many Rickenbacher frypans originally came in a gold color, and the players of that era liked to strip the gold flaking off.

3) Even though the old potentiometers of yesteryear were high quality and were manufactured better than the new potentiometers today, they still go bad because they are pushing 70 years old and many need to be replaced. You're LUCKY if the original potentiometers are even still there, much less work on a 1930's era steel guitar.

4) Regarding horseshoe magnets specifically, they are positioned to repel each other. This causes the magnetism to weaken over the years. After 70-90 years of repelling each other, both horseshoe magnets are woefully degaussed and need to be recharged. When you take them apart, sometimes the ground wires break off and then you MUST rewind the pickups because you have no other choice.

Despite all this, vintage steel guitars can still fetch a high price whether they are 100% original or not.

Your argument falls on the side of the purist who wants to keep things 100% original. I understand that. The tradeoff is that doing so makes them less playable. In some cases, unplayable.

My argument falls on the side of the player and the instrument itself. I believe these instruments should be played and WANT to be played and enjoyed. That's what they were made to do. Collectors amass huge collections of instruments that end up filling a storage locker and are ultimately sold off at estate sales.

Each of these old steels can actually last multiple human lifetimes. When they are played and maintained, it's just another part of their story. People in the future will still buy them.

My recommended course of action is to do whatever is needed to get these instruments back to being 100% performance ready, and then PERFORM with them, and ENJOY them. I always keep any of the original parts in a ziplock bag in the original case just to satisfy people with your set of values. It's a piece of history. I get it.

Lindy Fralin mildly scolded me once to keep all the old pots I change out. I said, "But Lindy they don't work, they're trash!" and he went "Well, just throw them in a drawer in your desk. That's what I do. We must respect the craftsmanship of the people who made those old pots."

So I get it, it's not just about money. It's also about preserving history and respecting the work of those who came before us.

People are going to make a living reselling vintage instruments. That's fine.

If people want to collect instruments and keep them 100% original, and that's how they enjoy them, that's also fine.

I buy my instruments and make them players. I perform music with them, that's how I enjoy them. That should be fine as well.

Every single one of my instruments is performance ready to make music. I REALLY get a lot of enjoyment going on these "treasure hunts" for old steels. Then I enjoy repairing them. When they start to sound really sweet, there's a lot of pleasure and satisfaction in that. Ultimately, I get the most pleasure from playing Hawaiian music with my friends. It's also a lot of fun to transcribe solos and whatnot from the players of yesteryear.

I apologize for going long, and I don't mean to put you on the spot. You're 100% entitled to your viewpoint, and I'm not saying it's wrong.

If keeping things 100% original is how you enjoy, then enjoy!

I play these instruments. It's really pleasing for me to repair and maintain them to make them sound their best. Then I go perform them on gigs, and play at get togethers. People in the crowd always smile and laugh. We make a connection. I keep steel alive. That's how I enjoy.

Just my 2¢. Take it with a grain of salt.

And no forget...ENJOY!