Blues Vocabulary on E9

[Jason Altshuler]

While practicing tonight I was just wondering if there are any good tips, tricks, or tabs out there for playing blues guitar vocabulary on E9. I find that the standard E9 grips and habits lead me into traps where I end up sounding too pretty, too "major," for lack of a better term.

My understanding is that C6 would be the more obvious tuning for playing the blues, but I don't have any double neck guitars so I'm stuck with E9 for now.

Apart from just half-pedaling the A pedal to get some bluesiness, how do people think about playing this stuff on E9?

[Douglas Schuch]

Joe Wright did a bunch of lessons that were posted for free on the old Sierra website. This site is currently still active (it's not a "secure" website, but if you aren't entering personal data, that should not matter. If I am mistaken about this, then feel free to correct me). So in one of his lessons, at the end, he played a really cool bluesy improvised tune. I liked it, so decided to tab it out, and posted the tab to the forum 12 years ago.

I just went back and looked at it, and the images of the tab were hard to read. So, with the improvements to the forum, I deleted the old images and uploaded new ones. There's tone of great licks you can lift from this little tune. You can find my post with the tab and all the details here:

viewtopic.php?p=2104719#p2104719

[Bob Hoffnar]

Try playing 2 frets down from no pedals. In the key of E play on the 10th fret with strings 7 and 1 as the root.
This gives you a very clear map of a minor pentatonic scale as a starting point. The pedals will have a different function in that position.

Another trick is to play on only string 4 with no pedals. Once you are rocking that one string only add string 5.

[Will Ellis]

What Bob said.

Also, listening to and transcribing a few classic blues guitarists will go a long way. Most of it will be in the position Bob laid out.

[Jason Altshuler]

Thanks everybody for the responses! These are great ideas.

I have already been using the "two frets down from pedals up" trick for a minor/dorian sound and to emulate single-note guitar lines... I was just wondering if people had any good sources of vocabulary that sounds more distinctly PSG, but still bluesy. Maybe transcribing more blues guitar is all there is to it though...

[Steve Morrell]

I’ve been grappling with this too. I’m not content to have just one spot to play at (the prev mentioned 2 frets down from pedals up). As a jazz pianist I know that the blues scale is most easily derived from the pentatonic scale up a minor third from the key you’re in. ie for blues in G play Bb pent. The best “pockets” for pent. scales are at I, IV (E’s lowered), and V (B pedal). Fragments can be found at II (B pedal), and bVII (E’s lowered). If you play around with these positions ( adding the A pedal works on most of them) you’ll find some nice bluesy stuff, very similar to blues guitar.

My struggle, as a relatively new player, is performing all the “math” in my head to reliably find those Bb pockets whilst still thinking in the key of G.

Also, remember that the major triad you get with the A pedal and E’s raised turns into a dominant 7 when you release the pedal, giving a nice bluesy sound.

Hope that makes even a little bit of sense…

[Aron Odin Kristensen]

Lloyd Green plays some very bluesy lines on the Charley Pride live album "In Person". Figuring out some of these licks really helped me map out some of the blues scale positions on E9. At least where Lloyd plays the bluesy stuff (which is more than good enough for me). It also helps me to understand how some of these bluesy lines can be applied to country songs.

So far, my observations are that many of these phrases are played with A+B pedals down, and if the lick was on an E chord, it would be played from at G major positions with A+B pedals (fret 10). You could think of it as 1 whole tone down from the E chord with no pedals (fret 12) or you could think of it as 3 half tones up from the E chord with A+B pedals (fret 7). After a while these ways of thinking should merge into one. I prefer to think of it as just an Em7 position, as the notes of the G6 chord on fret 10 are the same notes as an Em7 chord. This allows me to easily find the blues scale, and play around with the bluesy "minor vs. major third"-ideas and so on. I just prefer visualizing the scale from the root.

But dont take my word for it! I strongly believe that everyone should figure out the licks and make their own conclusions on why it works and how they like to visualize it, instead of trying to adopt someone else's system. Learning works best when you can relate the material to what you already know. Figuring it out is also the fun part!

[Dan Beller-McKenna]

When using the two-frets-down position, try avoiding string six, or at least string six with the B pedal down. Better using string seven in its place (as Bob mentioned). For simple and endlessly useful blues guitar lick out of this position, play 5 and 1, rocking the A pedal. This is replicates the armpit guitar lick of playing string 1 and string 3 two frets up, and bending string three a whole step. Annoying on the six-string when abused by beginners at Guitar Center, but very effective on the band stand when coming from the steel where it might not be expected.

Another good starting place is the lowered Es (4 and 8 ) together with the B pedal coming on and off the sixth string. You can also grab string 5 and rock on and off A, or A and B together in this position. So, in E, your I chord is at the fifth fret with string 10 as your low root.

[Rich Ertelt]

I don't play much straight up blues on the steel, but do play a lot of "bluesy" licks. I do play a LOT of blues on guitar, and a lot of slide, so I got a good background in the sound.

No pedals, it is basically open E, you can do a Lot of Duane Allman/Elmore type slide licks. AB down gives you open A, so a lot of open A licks. I just leave them and think like a slide player.

You want to look for the b7 and m3.

In E (I'm doing this at my desk at work, so from memory, lol)

10th fret, you have the b7 on string 4, 1 on string 1. Add the A pedal, you have the 5,b7,1 - I use that a lot. Add the B pedal on strings 3 and 6 for the m3, which is great for pulloffs to the 2, then play the 1 kind of licks.

at 8th fret, Eb knee lever in.

Tons of stuff using the B pedal 3rd string and stings 1 and 2 or with 1 and E lower knee - Eb. 17th fret, to 13th fret to 10th fret is a good run down. Stole that from Green,

7th fret B down, slide up 1 fret on string 5 for the m3, back to 7th fret, 1 on string 6. You have the 6th on string 7 there too. I use that a LOT. When you slide up to the 8th fret, you also have the 5 on string 2 and the 7 on string 1. Works with the lower E thing above or without it not hitting string 4, just depends on the lick, and what strings you are playing.

Tons more, but All I can think of quick off the top of my head, but just look for places where you have easy access to the m3 and b7.

[Fred Treece]

Pedal Steel Blues Vocabulary lesson starts at about 0:58 and goes about 40 seconds.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MueEDe3N0TI

Jimmy Day plays that solo like he’s mad but still wants to make you happy.

[J D Sauser]

I don't think "Pentatonics" or "Blues-Scale" (which is Penta + 1) when it comes to Blues. Neither did BB King.

I think chords and language.
Now, when it comes to laying that "language" or lets call it a "slang" down onto the strings, one ought to understand that the "Blue"-notes are not stand-alone notes, but mostly "play" between them notes and basic chord tones... namely the minor third (which in a Dominant environment would be called a #9th) and the Major third, or the 6th and the b7th.... etc.

I find that the minor positions lend themselves the best to play with the b3<->M3rd pair as it reduces zig-zag bar movement, while playing the 6th<->b7th pair is for the same reason faster on the Major6th positions. E9th has several "easy-access" M6th positions (A&B down or Eb-lever down and to a certain extend A-pedal down) which 3 frets up, convert into the relative minor positions.
And keep in mind the "two-(frets)-below"-position (as Jeff Newman called it) under the Major position which has 3 out of 4 notes in the Dominant chord tones and the last one just a half step below, which also invites for "play" with.

It's Decades since I used to play E9th mainly, but music is music, chords are chords... NOW on C6th, I find that as soon as it get's Bluesy (and we're talking Major Blues here), I find it easier to "fly"-out creatively off my relative minor positions. It will be the same on E9th, D13th or what hav'ya.

Again, Blues is "EAR"-playing music and has a LOT (not to say ALL) to do with feelings (feeling "Blue") and thus I feel it cannot be really rendered using a system or an OBAIL ("Oh Boy Am I Lost")-fit over all "make you SOUND like you're almost playing blues"-scale.
LISTEN, LISTEN as it says in Night Live "... listen to what the Blues is SAYIN'!"... get the lingo, get sad or angry and work it to tickle it outta them 10 strings!

... J-D.

[Fred Treece]

The major and minor pentatonic scales are a gift! Seek them out on your pedal steel and the notes therein shall find chord tonal function. Let them sing madly, let them dance with a heart-beaten rhythm, and they will tell the story of the blues that will make the listener simultaneously weep with mournful memory and rejoice in the sharing of it.

[Jerry Dragon]

I am new to the PSG basically, but have played guitar for 60 years. I bought a Dekley with a Franklin pedal. I changed it so it lowered both G# strings a half step. I forget how it was set up. I wanted it to be like barring an E chord on a guitar and lifting your middle finger lowering the third a half step making it a minor chord. Now, with the bar at the third fret, no pedals or knees engaged, I have a G chord. Engage the Franklin pedal and I have a G minor chord. With the Franklin set up like this, all notes from the 10th to the 3rd string are basically a minor scale making playing "blues" scales much easier. Someone on here also taught me that using the Franklin and the A pedal set up the way I have the Franklin set up, will give me the 4 chord as a dominant 7th which adds to running blues scales. This won't help if you don't have a Franklin pedal, just a thought. Also, I am a novice and don't know my rear from my elbow. If I didn't know basic music theory I might be up a creek. When I first posted this I wrote "my a r s e from my elbow" When I posted it, it read, "from my rear to my elbow". I edited it twice to read "a r s e" and it still comes up as "rear". What's up with that? It won't let me say a r s e, rear, it changed it to rear every time? It changed a r s e to rear again lol. Never seen this happen before?

[Andy Henriksen]

. The best “pockets” for pent. scales are at I, IV (E’s lowered), and V (B pedal). Fragments can be found at II (B pedal), and bVII (E’s lowered). If you play around with these positions ( adding the A pedal works on most of them) you’ll find some nice bluesy stuff, very similar to blues guitar.

Can you (or anyone else) explain this somehow differently? I think of pockets as narrow fret zones. When I see Roman numerals, I think scale tone (edit: or I guess more accurately the chords formed from them), which could be played nearly anywhere on the neck. I don’t consider II or IV to be a particular pocket per se (edit part 2: there are 3 very common ways to play any chord and several other less common ways), so I’m not sure how to translate this into something actionable…

Thanks!

[J D Sauser]

. The best “pockets” for pent. scales are at I, IV (E’s lowered), and V (B pedal). Fragments can be found at II (B pedal), and bVII (E’s lowered). If you play around with these positions ( adding the A pedal works on most of them) you’ll find some nice bluesy stuff, very similar to blues guitar.

Can you (or anyone else) explain this somehow differently? I think of pockets as narrow fret zones. When I see Roman numerals, I think scale tone, which could be played nearly anywhere on the neck. I don’t consider II or IV to be a particular pocket per se, so I’m not sure how to translate this into something actionable…

Thanks!

The steel guitar being a chord based instrument, has a tuning which is closer to "in 3rds" than lets say guitar.
Actually, "Swing"-tunings tend to lean towards an average of intervals from string to string close to minor thirds. On E9th the 3 main "Swing"-tuning interval arrangements are with either A&B down (open A6th), E's-flattened (B6th very similar layout as in C6th) and A down (E13th) to a lesser extend.

Therefore, and ideally in order to limit left hand travel, pockets should be explored and developed attached to a bass root and be at typically 2 frets deep. Evidently, if we think of about 4 pockets organized fairly evenly along the strings within an octave, in AVERAGE only one fret would separate each 2-fret pocket (which WILL "grow" roots and branches a fret lower and one higher), which makes mathematical sense and opens the gates to fluid transit from pocket to pocket and eventually along the whole 12-fret highway.

You are of course right, numerals will not only designate chords in a progression (typically in Roman Numerals, aka "The Nashville Number System"), but also scale DEGREES (typically in Arabic numbers (EG: "b2nd, 2nd, m3rd, Maj3rd... etc") some of which will be chord-tones (Eg: "the root, the flat ninth, the ninth, the minor third... etc") .
Numerals are also used to designate "space" in between degrees... called INTERVALS (Eg: "a minor second, second, minor third, Major third, Fourth..." etc.).

I can't relate much to Steve's post, because I don't play E9th anymore and I play single note solos without pedals and levers even on my PSG.

I would just reiterate that I feel that for single note "bluesy" playing, minor pockets (like the relative minor position found 3 frets above a Major position, seems more resourceful in setting up the desired degrees (b3rd which can be "majorized" quite satisfyingly with a "bend" from the bar, b7th which I like to also bend up to from a Major 6th position and then continue up another 2 frets into that minor position for some play which hits the blue sugar-notes and reveals the steel guitars "bending" capabilities in a fitting manner, musically).
As my signature suggests, I am a follower of BB King's style of not just "hashing" or "shredding" but "saying" something. Others may have a different approach to music and Blues all together.
I can only speak to what triggers my interest.

... J-D.

[Steve Mueller]

Nice! Thanks Doug!!

[Fred Treece]

Taking maybe a deeper look at the “two frets down” idea reveals an interesting pentatonic concept.

Since we love the key of G on pedal steel, I’ll go there.

The chords in a G blues are G-C-D.
Two frets down from each chord is F-Bb-C.

The root names from those chords in ascending order form a Gm pentatonic scale G-Bb-C-D-F.

The “no-pedals” chord positions are at frets 3-6-8-10-13(or 1).

Now take a look at the single notes of the Gm pentatonic available to you at those fret positions.

Fret 3: G-F-D
Fret 6: Bb-D-F
Fret 8: C-D-G-Bb
Fret 10: D-C
Fret 13: F-G-C

It’s up to you to find the strings for those notes.

You can do this with “pedals down” and “E’s lowered” positions too. When you add in other chord tones and pedal/lever options from those fret locations, that’s a lot of pockets.

Needless to say, knowing where the notes are doesn’t make you a great blues player, but it sure helps.