Carbon Fiber Legs - Are they worth it ?

[Paul Mageau]

I need to shorten the legs on my Excel PSG. I have been shopping around for options because I am stunned by the cost of a set of four legs($200+ WTF??).

So, oddly enough I found that I can make sets of Carbon Fiber extendable Legs for a small fraction of that kind of cost. Perhaps $50-75 for a set of four.

Has anyone used carbon fiber legs ? Are they strong enough ? Is the reduced weight a boon to the traveling musician ?

Any help is welcomed !

[Tom Campbell]

Sounds like a great idea; especially with the price of aluminum projected to escalate.
I would think you would want to keep the pedal bar metal for stability.

[Bill McCloskey]

My understanding is that Excel legs are not standard thread size and they have a unique way of connecting to the pedal bar that precludes buying standard legs. You might want to research that a bit.

[Toshiyuki Shoji]

The thread on the Excel legs is 1/2 Whitworth.

I build and sell lightweight carbon fiber legs for steel guitars.
These legs are available with either 1/2-13 UNC or 1/2 BSW (Whitworth) threads.

I installed a set of carbon fiber legs on my Emmons D10 and tested them.
Compared to steel or stainless steel legs, carbon fiber legs have more flex and may feel wobbly.
Whether this matters depends on the player, but for me, it didn’t affect my playing, so I didn’t mind.

To give you a better idea, I recorded a short video demonstrating the wobble:https://youtube.com/shorts/wlpxTHGpmEA

The thread material is steel, while the legs themselves are carbon fiber, which is why they are more flexible than metal legs.
Please understand that these legs are designed as lightweight replacement parts for players who prioritize reducing weight over rigidity.

If you're interested, please contact me via my website:
https://www.shoji-workshop.com/en/

I have also posted information about carbon fiber legs here, so I would appreciate it if you could take a look.

viewtopic.php?t=403550

Thank you.
Toshiyuki

[J D Sauser]

The thread on the Excel legs is 1/2 Whitworth.

I build and sell lightweight carbon fiber legs for steel guitars.
These legs are available with either 1/2-13 UNC or 1/2 BSW (Whitworth) threads.

I installed a set of carbon fiber legs on my Emmons D10 and tested them.
Compared to steel or stainless steel legs, carbon fiber legs have more flex and may feel wobbly.
Whether this matters depends on the player, but for me, it didn’t affect my playing, so I didn’t mind.

To give you a better idea, I recorded a short video demonstrating the wobble:https://youtube.com/shorts/wlpxTHGpmEA

The thread material is steel, while the legs themselves are carbon fiber, which is why they are more flexible than metal legs.
Please understand that these legs are designed as lightweight replacement parts for players who prioritize reducing weight over rigidity.

If you're interested, please contact me via my website:
https://www.shoji-workshop.com/en/

I have also posted information about carbon fiber legs here, so I would appreciate it if you could take a look.

viewtopic.php?t=403550

Thank you.
Toshiyuki

Way to go, Shoji!... I'd love a set. Just need to confirm the thread with MSA... J-D.

[Steve Lipsey]

I'm surely going to get a set of Toshi's carbon fiber legs...but I want mine, with carbon fiber pedal bar and pedals, attached to a new Shoji guitar, when they are available! Here's hoping that his recovery goes well...I've got my credit card ready...

[Bobby D. Jones]

If you go from steel legs to Carbon legs, You may have to lengthen knee lever travel a little.
I played a MSA Classic S10 with steel legs for about 20 years. When I became 2nd owner of a GFI Ultra 12S with aluminum legs. Part of sellers reason for selling it, He said it moved when he engaged the knee levers.

I quickly seen what the problem was. The Knee Levers moved short, And crisp, But took quite a bit of pressure.
I re-setup the knee levers with longer travel, (Which takes less force on knee lever.) Have gigged guitar on different stages surfaces, With no problem of the guitar moving.

[Toshiyuki Shoji]

When playing on a smooth floor, the steel guitar may slide or move.
Here's a simple tip: If you attach a polyurethane anti-slip pad to the Rubber Leg Tip, your steel guitar will be less likely to slide. Plus, the Rubber Leg Tip will last longer!

[Paul Mageau]

The thread on the Excel legs is 1/2 Whitworth.

I build and sell lightweight carbon fiber legs for steel guitars.
These legs are available with either 1/2-13 UNC or 1/2 BSW (Whitworth) threads.

I installed a set of carbon fiber legs on my Emmons D10 and tested them.
Compared to steel or stainless steel legs, carbon fiber legs have more flex and may feel wobbly.
Whether this matters depends on the player, but for me, it didn’t affect my playing, so I didn’t mind.

To give you a better idea, I recorded a short video demonstrating the wobble:https://youtube.com/shorts/wlpxTHGpmEA

The thread material is steel, while the legs themselves are carbon fiber, which is why they are more flexible than metal legs.
Please understand that these legs are designed as lightweight replacement parts for players who prioritize reducing weight over rigidity.

If you're interested, please contact me via my website:
https://www.shoji-workshop.com/en/

I have also posted information about carbon fiber legs here, so I would appreciate it if you could take a look.

viewtopic.php?t=403550

Thank you.
Toshiyuki

Wow Shoji! You are so kind to help so much ! Thanks for the great info. I wondered what the thread of the excel was and now I know !

[Paul Mageau]

Thanks for all you help everyone !

[Donny Hinson]

I need to shorten the legs on my Excel PSG. I have been shopping around for options because I am stunned by the cost of a set of four legs($200+ WTF??). So, oddly enough I found that I can make sets of Carbon Fiber extendable Legs for a small fraction of that kind of cost. Perhaps $50-75 for a set of four.

Somehow, I doubt that? While you might be able to make a set for that amount, making and selling are two different things. The standard rule for manufacturing is that your selling price has to be at least two to three times the manufacturing cost to make it a viable business.

Has anyone used carbon fiber legs ? Are they strong enough ? Is the reduced weight a boon to the traveling musician ?

Yes, I've used them; and yes, I find them strong enough and rigid enough.
(My MSA Millennium has them.)

As far as being a boon to a travelling musician, here's the straight skinny on various weight savings ideas:

Carbon fiber legs will save you about 4 1/2 lbs.

A fiberboard case (as opposed to the standard flight case) will save you about 3 1/2 lbs.
or...
A custom-made plastic case (such as a Cabbage case, as opposed to a standard flight case) will save you about 6 lbs.

Replacing the standard steel crossrods with aluminum pieces will save you about 3 1/2 lbs.

Lastly, replacing the standard steel pull rods with titanium will save you about 1-2 lbs., depending on the guitar and setup complexity.

So, you could save 13-15 lbs. utilizing all these ideas. But whether or not that's worth it to you is purely personal.

[John Hyland]

Regarding home made CF legs it should be noted there are two types of CF tube. Pultrude and Roll wrapped tubes.
Pultrude is notably cheaper and the fibres run along the length of the tube where as roll wrap uses a cross weave. As such the pultrude tube is totally unsuited to multi directional forces and probably would crack at the connection point. They also look crude compared to roll wrapped tubes where you can see the characteristic weave pattern of carbon fibre.
Other options which are cheaper which might be suitable are hybrid CF and fibreglass.
To my eye from photos Sierra legs look larger than the normal steel legs-probably to get a thicker wall dimension.

Also I’m very surprised CF legs are considered wobbly-are they really?

[John Hyland]

This article discusses the difference in strength between pultrude, roll wrapped , steel and alum under a number of tests.

https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/learni ... -explained

[Donny Hinson]

Interesting article. However, most of the tests performed are not qualities we're interested in, and they also only compare on the basis of tubes being dimensionally identical. I have no doubt that a thicker-wall pultruded tube would perform as good (or better) than a roll-wrap tube if terminated properly. In addition, pultruded tubes could get a thin wrap or gel-coating if you wanted to improve their cosmetics. (Cosmetics are always the most simple things.) The article does emphatically state that neither the roll-wrap or pultruded tubing has the overall strength of steel, so we can at least put that issue to bed. In addition, the Sierra legs are made from square aluminum, probably for the folding aspect and lighter weight, so they're a different animal entirely. The standard chrome steel legs are repurposed mic stand parts, chosen for their finish, availability, and suitability for the task. It's the one thing that was always pretty much the de-facto standard in the industry, thank heavens!

I cannot speak about aluminum legs because I have no experience with them. Although I was promised a set when I bought my MSA Millennium, for one reason or another, they never arrived. There was also zero follow-up after I bought the guitar, something I would have expected as one of the very first purchasers of such a new and bold design. (Their loss, not mine.) A couple of the problems I had I fixed myself, and the others I just ignored, and some were fixed in later iterations. I've never seen a "perfect" pedal steel, and doubt that one might ever exist. But I'm confident I could make improvements on anything that comes along, I'm just "that kind" of a guy. It's sometimes a curse, I wind up fixing or re-designing most of the products I buy, and usually enjoy doing it.

As a few final words on lightening, I'll state that I did do some things years ago to help in that area. My old MSA
Classic had a quarter-inch thick piece of aluminum on the back of the cabinet, a cover plate to conceal the crossrods and holes. I took that off and left it off after determining it wasn't structurally necessary. That saved a pound. Then I cut most of the inner leg tubes off making them no longer than necessary to play from a seated position, and that saved another pound. I also carried my volume pedal, and strings and cords in the guitar case for awhile, but I stopped doing that, and started carrying all the "accessories" in an old bowling bag. That lightened the guitar case by another four or five pounds of weight. I was thinking about replacing the stainless-steel crossrods with T-6 aluminum, which would have saved another two pounds, but I never got around to that. Replacing the C6th stainless pull rods with aluminum also crossed my mind, and would have saved another pound, but I never got around to it, and I had also decided that installing aluminum pull rods on the E9th would be a bad idea because they're longer and would be more affected by temperature changes.

Admittedly, one of the best "lightening ideas" I've seen is the "swiss-cheese" frame machining, notable on guitars like the Excel, Fuzzy, and Sierra.

That's enough for now, apologies for being long-winded.

[John Hyland]

Interesting comments Donny but a couple of points; I think by the time a protrude tube is made cosmetic and strengthened to prevent splitting at the connections the cost would be similar to using a roll wrap.
Also regarding Sierra legs I think you might be thinking of the older designs. The new ones definitely have carbon fibre tubes. .( maybe a custom request).
Regarding weight savings I think you are correct to say lighter legs will not be as strong but it is possible to use a larger diameter or a thicker wall. I plan to make some aluminium legs which will have a wall thickness of 3mm (1/8 inch) so the weight savings won’t be significant.
Weight savings need to come from multiple areas and one area that isn’t discussed is the body of the guitar but that requires a fundamental change to the design for the instrument for which traditionalists might not be happy with.

[Mark Eaton]

Are carbon fiber legs worth it?

Some players to ask are owners of the more recent Sierra pedal steels that were made by Ross Shafer for a number of years here in Sonoma County, California.

The company is shutting down because the owner decided it was time and Ross is retiring, but there are a fair number of forumites who play these beautiful guitars and when they were still available there was some serious “sticker shock” when you found out the price.

[John Hyland]

Even better if Ross was to chime in….

[Mark Eaton]

Yeah, it would be great if Ross chimed in.

He was the founder of Salsa Cycles, and I have one of the last drop bar road bikes that was made at his Petaluma facility around the time he sold the business, but that was quite a few years ago. No carbon fiber on my bike - chromoly steel frame and fork - but since Ross came from that industry and seems to know most everyone in it, and with carbon fiber dominating a lot of the high end bike industry these days, he really knows his stuff.