11 string copedent idea... is this sensible?

[Dave Stagner]

I recently picked up an 11 string that is currently set up as standard E9 with a low E. I'm considering dropping the D string and tuning the low strings to E G# B E. I don't use the D often, but it has its moments, so I'd like it to be available on a lever. I see two ways of doing that - B to +++D, or E to --D.

I'm thinking of putting E-D on the same lever that drops string 2 to D. I'd probably also set it up so there's a half-stop on 2, so I can get C#.

Do you see any problems or disadvantages with this approach? Any other ideas?

[Fred]

That's one way the bottom of a 12 string universal is set up (without the low B). You can also add the low G# to your A pedal. You have available both R,5,R and 5,R,5 that match the low power chords on a guitar.

[Dave Stagner]

Part of my reasoning for doing it this way is to keep the traditional A/B pedal behavior on the low B and G# strings. I could do a lot of those classic country licks in two different octaves without moving the bar, which could be fun!

[Andrew Frost]

Lowering 8 E-D and raising 9 B-D are both great ways to keep the D in your tuning.
They bear slightly different fruit though. In terms of the dom9 voicing, one approach loses the middle root note while the other doesn't....
Raising B-D gives you ...G#/D/E/F#....on strings 10/9/8/7, more akin to open E9 I'd say, while lowering 8 E-D gives you ...G#/B/D/F# on those strings which is a little different, actually more like pedal 6 on C6. So if you're thinking in terms of E9/B6, consider that lowering 8 a whole tone will line up more with any other B6 universal style changes you put on the guitar.
Congratulations on the S11!
Andy

[Bobby D. Jones]

For a 11 string guitar, You may want to look at Jeff Newman's Universal Tuning.
In the E9th tuning, The 12 string B is hard to fit in.
The 11th E, 10 G#, 9 B, 8 E is a new game, Lower octave.

Good Luck on this adventure, Happy Steelin.

[Dave Stagner]

For a 11 string guitar, You may want to look at Jeff Newman's Universal Tuning.
In the E9th tuning, The 12 string B is hard to fit in.
The 11th E, 10 G#, 9 B, 8 E is a new game, Lower octave.

Good Luck on this adventure, Happy Steelin.

Oh, that’s an interesting idea! But the instrument is only a 4+5, or I’d be thinking about how to adapt a universal or D13 type tuning. Without at least one more pedal, it seems like extended E9 might be a better fit.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Yes, My guitar is set up Jeff Newman Uni., Has 12 strings, 7 pedals and 5 knee levers.
But I only use 3 pedals and 3 knee levers And 11 strings for E9th voicing.
Pedals ABC, RKL Raise E's, RKR Lower E's, LKV B lower to A#/Bb and LKL 9th String B to D/ 2nd string to D.
I do not use the 12 string on E9th voicing, To low and walks on bass.
If I ever get serious into the B6th tuning, I may find a use for the 12 string.

[Dean Parks]

Yes, I play 11 and have it setup like that. Tho I chose B to D, due to stiffness and unreliability of that pull, I changed the 2nd string to only go to D, which is actually more usable, because it’s a guaranteed good note. With the Half-stop D# to C#, the D was undependable, and I was afraid to use it.

However, the E to D might make the pull less stiff than B-D, but it is so nice this way that I use both D’s more often and with complete comfort.

[Rick Schmidt]

Just food for thought....

I know I'm old and set in my ways, but I'd hate to lose the D!
First you'd lose that all the minor chords that are inherantly the misunderstood parts of strings 10, 9, 7,6.... you'd loose a ton of usable diminished, half diminished chords and sus chords. The way that the D-C# lower lever works is magical to me. There's beautiful country, jazz, blues, and rhythm pockets based all over the usual lower strings of E9!

Adding a G# on the 11th string that's hooked up to the B pedal is what the tuning has always needed IMHO!

I play a loaded Ext. E9 12 string with a low G# and E... and as much as I love the low E, it's the G# that I couldn't live without! YMMV

[Richard Alderson]

Private MS sent to R. Schmidt.

[Bobby D. Jones]

4140_Jeff_Newman_Universal_1.jpg

Here is Mr. Newman's Uni tuning.
It gives you the 10th string G# to A on the B pedal
The 11th string raises to F with the 4-8 raise on knee lever.

[J D Sauser]

I consider myself "legally" an 11-string player, although I own all S12 guitars.
Why 11 string's then, because I need an added bass string, BUT, I really hate playing the 1 string "out there" without feeling the tip-support we are used to playing any other string. So, I have an added string on top, which makes sense in the tuning but I don't rely on much... mainly that first string provides me with the same feeling on by therefore 2nd string. So... make it 12 sting.
I get all the precious perks of having a very special instrument, but PSG is already "special" enough and mostly expensive enough and having a builder make you an 11 string is cost you more than a 12 string and it will also be less attractive to sell one day.

... J-D.

[Bob Hoffnar]

The D string is at the heart of the elegance of the E9 tuning. Without it you degrade the harmonic function of your other pedals and levers. For how I play and think to have that D note on a pedal instead of sitting there right in front of me would be like trying to play with a hand tied behind my back.

[Andrew Frost]

I'd agree with Bob that not having a D available below the root of the E tuning would substantially decrease the harmonic possibilities. But I'd argue that having it on a lever is indeed a very efficient, and I would even say 'elegant' way of not losing that part of the tuning. The beauty of it, especially on a single neck guitar, is having extended B6 and A6 possibilities while still having the 'heart' of the E9 sound available.
On my set ups it allows a 10 string to have G# on the bottom that raises to A, the low root of pedals down strummable A6. It also lowers to F# which opens up the tuning substantially.

The whole 'D string on a lever' approach to E9 is not for everyone. It is very much comparable to the *addition* of a D string to the C6 tuning between the C and E. My point being that one could easily say that it compromises the elegance of the diminished pedals and introduces hasslesome semitone rubs and "skip" strings. No less of a nuisance than operating a lever to activate the D on an E9 universal tuning. But If it works for you and you understand what is gained or lost with any approach then have it.

[John Hyland]

It also lowers to F# which opens up the tuning substantially.

Andrew, What gauge do you use to get a nice F# lower ( and neck length). Also what lever/pedal uses this?

[Andrew Frost]

John, I have a zero pedal that lowers the G# on 10 down to F#. I use a 44w. It also raises string 6 G# up to A#. The placement of it beside the A pedal's C#s on strings 5 and 9 creates a whole F# world of options, with or without the E and F lever... ( F#9, F#6/13, F#maj7 etc)
Also, with Es lowered it enables the C6 equivalent of pedal 4 in the middle of the tuning more or less and also pedal 7, when combined with the A pedal.

[John Hyland]

Thanks Andrew, on my s10 I have G# to G on the zero pedal for a blues option, But your option sounds interesting.
My 42w sounds a bit flabby so will try the 44w

[Jon Jaffe]

I play a 10str copedent that's a cross between Tom Brumley and Jeff Newman. My other guitars are Newman Klines and this is a new Sierra. Sorry, Bob Hoffnar, I don't consider the D to be the center of my tuning. I consider the B to be the center.

1907_Brumley_copedant_1.jpg

Jon Jaffe Uni 10.jpg

[Dave Stagner]

So there are three possible tunings here. Low four strings only:
- E B D E
- E G# B E
- G# B D E

I haven't done anything to alter yet, because I'm still processing the Day to Emmons switch in my head. Assuming I keep the Emmons ABC pedals and E levers, that leaves P0, LKV, RKL, and RKR to possibly change. LKV is currently Bb, and I'm loath to change it, because I use it a lot for minors. RKL currently has 1-2 to G#-E, a sweet country change. And RKR is just D# > D. As long as I can get that high D somehow, I don't absolutely need it to be what it is.

I'm not a jazz player, and only have passing understanding of how to use seventh chords and beyond effectively. From guitar, I have an ear for stacked fourths and stacked fifths, sus2 and sus4 chords.

For now, I'm really just playing it as 10 string E9, with ineffective experiments at using the low E. I also know for sure I'm not maximizing my use of the low strings in straight E9 yet!