Why does my basic diy lap steel sound better than my Epiphone?

[Paul Douglas]

I'm very new to lap steel. After checking various reviews, I bought an Epiphone Electar "1939" - not that much else that I could afford was available anyway. Several reviewers said the guitar was fine apart from the pickup, though others said the pickup was ok. It seemed ok to me. But... I was intrigued by the whole idea of building a lap steel and, as a try-out, thought I have a go at a quick and basic 2x4 job, just to see if it worked. As the Epiphone is a 22.5" scale with 58mm string spacing, I tried something different and used Duesenberg's 25.5" scale with 54mm spacing. I bought tuners, a bass pickup (for the width) and a jack from Amazon for about €50, used aluminium angle for the bridge and nut and didn't bother with tone or volume controls. I used Ernie Ball Not Even Slinky strings which were cheaper but more-or-less the same guages as the GHS Lap Steel ones I put on the Epiphone, and both are tuned to Open D. Imagine my surprise when the home-made job not only worked, but sounded significantly better, and I'm wondering what is making the difference. I set the volume and tone to max on the Epiphone and everything else is the same. The 2x4 has better sustain and better tone. I presume the longer scale helps with sustain, though I didn't think an extra 3" would make that much difference. Is there anything else that could be affecting the sound of the Epiphone, or is it down to the pickup? The actual pickup I used on the 2x4 is a FLEOR Alnico 5 JB Bass Bridge Pickup that was practically dirt-cheap (about €20) so I find it hard to believe that Epiphone used something even more basic than that, but maybe they did. I've tried adjusting the height of the pickup on the Epiphone but it doesn't seem to make a difference. The Fleor is single coil; the Epiphone has a Blade Humbucker.

All suggestions gratefully received! Thank you.

[Andrew Frost]

Congratulations. I would think that any instrument made with human hands, care, and attention to detail would have significantly more charm and character, as long as components and parts are functional and of reasonable quality.

[Paul Douglas]

Thank you! I have to say though that my woodworking skills are on the basic side, I did it in a bit of a rush, and the quality of the parts is certainly not anything beyond "reasonable" - eg the tuners seem ok but the ones on the Epiphone definitely seem to be higher quality, so I would have thought the pickup would be too. I tried tuning up to Open E in case the taughter strings helped, and maybe they were a little better, but still not as good as the 2x4. If a €20 pickup is so much better, I'm wondering if it's worth trying to upgrade the pickup in the Epiphone, or just leave it as it is and maybe one day trade up to something better (assuming my playing improves - not a given!).

[Michael Kiese]

Aloha Paul,

Congrats on building a killer working man's steel!

I love the form factor of a steel guitar. It's so simple and straight forward. Not much to go wrong.

When it comes to sustain/tone, there are various factors. Here are a few: the length of string past the nut and past the saddle. Even though they are very tight in tension, they still contribute to how a string feels and responds. They also act as sympathetic strings.

Therefore whether a guitar is "string through body" or not, does make a difference in the voice of the instrument, as does the length of the strings past the nut on the way to the tuning machines. I noticed on a Rickenbacher Frypan, there is quite a long length of "string through body". I'm certain that plays a part in the tone as well as the fact it's a metal body.

In mechanical engineering, materials science, and musical acoustics, the field of study of how strings behave is called "Sterics".

But without having to go down the rabbit hole, just experiment with different string tensions given the same tuning and scale length. I think you'll get the most bang for your buck there.

If the string is too loose, then the notes will be too flubby, and the volume will be low because there's not enough stored energy in the string. If the string is too tight, then the notes will "choke out".

That's the beauty of steel guitar. It's a string on a solid piece of wood or metal. That's it. So just experiment with different types and gauges of strings.

The majority of the magic can be found in that journey. The pickup can only pick up what the strings put out. If you already have a decent pickup, just experiment with strings. Once you find strings you like, then experiment with Pot values for your volume pot. Then maybe try different pickups. If you go in that order, you'll spend less money and find your tone faster. Pickups are expensive. Strings and Potentiometers aren't. Judge with your ear, and not your pocketbook. You'll be good!

Enjoy!

[Paul Douglas]

Morning Mike - thank you so much for your insights! Neither of the guitars has through-body strings but my 2x4 one has a much longer string length from bridge to retainer (40mm vs 18mm) and from nut to tuning pegs (80mm vs 55mm to nearest peg) than the Epiphone. This purely by accident as I used 2 pieces of aluminium angle back-to-back at both ends of the scale simply because it was what I had available, and that added the extra length. I stumbled across a review by Troy (as in Lessons With) of his mods to a Gretsch lap steel that is the obvious alternative to the Epiphone and he had re-strung it with completely different strings that he said made it sound massively better, as he demonstrated. So, I will start by experimenting with strings, which will be much easier than trying to change the pickup in the Epiphone as it's not a regular size/shape.

I love the form factor of a steel guitar. It's so simple and straight forward. Not much to go wrong.

Absolutely, it's brilliant. Shame I was completely unaware of these instruments until very recently! - though it's nice to have something new to discover. I've always wanted to have a go at making my own instruments. I'm a woodwind player and did once go on a course on which I made a baroque instrument that didn't have modern keywork, but I could never reproduce that at home. Lap steel guitars are a completely different matter and I'm already looking forward to the next one: I have lots of wood, some very nice that has been waiting years for a suitable project, and I can re-use the bits like the pickup and tuners, so hours of fun. That's on top of learning to play a different style of music on a totally different kind of instrument and is the first time I've embarked on something that doesn't involve sight reading sheet music. O brave new world that has such instruments in it!!

Sláinte from Ireland

Paul

[Michael Kiese]

Aloha Kakahiaka Paul,
(good morning)

You're very welcome my friend. Steel certainly is fun. Not only is it a fun instrument to play, but it's also literally an applied string physics laboratory right in your lap. The simple form factor of a lap steel guitar is a gift. The limited components lets you really focus on where "tone" really comes from. It's actually given me much deeper and profound insight as to how an electric guitar really works.

The electronics are also very simple, so you can focus on playing with the few existing variables that make significant differences in sound.

Here's a helpful tip I got from Lindy Fralin: get yourself a decade box of resistors, and a decade box of capacitors. They allow you to play test your guitar in real time while you change values.

I included a picture. As you can see, my Rickenbacher Bakelite has only 1 volume potentiometer. Nothing else. The previous owner had installed a 500K pot in there. It passed WAY too much high end into the signal path. After hooking up the the decade box, I experimented with resistance values from 250K all the way down to 1K. When you do this in real time, it teaches you how the values of the resistance affect the sound of the guitar, and how it "feels" and responds.

Here's the theory on potentiometer values:

1) Potentiometers are variable resistors
2) The stronger the resistance, the higher the value. 500K is a stronger resistor than 250K.
3) Weak resistors, because they are weak, allow high frequencies to bleed to ground. Strong resistors maintain the entire signal because no frequencies are bled to ground.

ex) a 500K resistor is so strong that it will not allow much, if any, signal to bleed to ground. A 250K resistor, even if it is fully open at "10", is allowing some high end frequency to bleed to ground. A 1K resistor is so weak, that it will allow MOST of the signal to bleed to ground including most of your volume.

Depending on the type of pickup you have, you may want a strong resistor or a weak resistor. Why? Because some pickups are naturally very harsh sounding with a lot of high frequencies (in this case using a weak resistor bleeds those high frequencies to ground). Other pickups are naturally muddy sounding (in this case you want a strong resistor to maintain the entire signal).

Choosing the values of the Potentiometers and Capacitors is where Electronics/Science meets Art. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer. It's just what you like.

It's like cooking with salt. If there is no salt, there is no flavor, but individuals vary on how much salt they like in their food. Think of "salt" as an analogy to "high frequencies" in your guitar signal.

For me, I love single coils. I prefer them over humbuckers. Single coils are naturally bright sounding. Horseshoe pickups are very, very bright sounding single coils. So I'm always trying to remove their high end in order to "tame" them. Therefore I prefer to use low value pots. In this way, the volume pot itself acts like a low pass filter directly from the guitar itself. I'm removing the large amounts of salt right at the source. Salt is good, but nobody enjoys drinking ocean water.

I wish you countless hours of happiness and joy on your journey of discovery!

[John Harmon]

Not involved at all but learning lots from this post, thank you guys. John

[Paul Douglas]

Mike - thanks for all the additional info, the decade boxes (never heard of them before, had to look them up) look like they would be both interesting and fun to play with and I will look into getting them. One of the (many) nice things about building such a basic guitar is that I have no concerns around playing about with it and messing anything up. I've already ordered some ferules to try the through-body stringing, it will be interesting to see what difference, if any, they make, and I'll work up to volume and tone pots.

Sláinte! (good health)

PS the Rickenbacker looks great!

[Michael Kiese]

Not involved at all but learning lots from this post, thank you guys. John

You're welcome John, my pleasure.

Enjoy!

[Michael Kiese]

Mike - thanks for all the additional info, the decade boxes (never heard of them before, had to look them up) look like they would be both interesting and fun to play with and I will look into getting them. One of the (many) nice things about building such a basic guitar is that I have no concerns around playing about with it and messing anything up. I've already ordered some ferules to try the through-body stringing, it will be interesting to see what difference, if any, they make, and I'll work up to volume and tone pots.

Sláinte! (good health)

PS the Rickenbacker looks great!

Nice! Yeah, get yourself a Decade box of resistors, and a separate Decade box of capacitors. You'll need the resistor version to test what Potentiometer value you want for your volume knob. The Capacitor decade box will be helpful for you to hone in what capacitor value you want on your Tone knob.

Also, it's cool that you ordered ferules for through body stringing. I'd be very interested to hear if you report back to any differences you can perceive.

Oh! One last thing: there are many online string tension calculators that you can use for free to estimate your string tension. Here's one I use a lot:
https://tension.stringjoy.com

You just input the scale length, and the note you want, and it pops out the tension of the string in foot-pounds. I did some nerdy at home tests and calculations, and it's acceptably close. Good enough for government work anyways. lol.

String tension calculators are very handy tools that aide you in creating your own custom string sets. I like to create sets with balanced tension so that all the strings have the same tension. It feels good and makes it easier to play. Just decide for yourself what tension you like. Here's a tip: after MUCH personal experimentation, 15 ftlbs is too little tension, and 30 ftlbs is too much tension. So just settle in on the tension you like the best!

Enjoy!

[Frank Leppert]

First thing to tell, congratulations for your project buiding it on your own. 4 Years ago I did almost the same, some wood and aluminium from the hardware store, chineese tuners and pickup, built it together and it worked. Later on I improved, got a bass pickup, similiar to yours and I added a roller bridge. I had read that roller bridges would improve sustain. I found a roller bridge for 5-string bass that matched the spring space for my steel. I bought two of them and I must say it seems that the guitar improved a lot the sustain. I built a 22,5 inches scale with 3/8 string space as Jerry Byrd recomended, especially good for slanting. 8-string, C6 with high G. The last changes I did was putting on the volume and tone control to get theese waoh waoh effect. I have to experience different values to optimize. Anyway, this DIY Steel was enough to learn the basics within 4 years. And I must say that I am quite happy with the sound. As an amp I have a very week Fender clone amp, just to carry around. The best sound I get out of an old stereo HiFi player. I plug the guitar in the Karaoke jack and the amplifier is quite good, much better than my little Fender amp.
Thanks a lot to everybody´s advice here, lots of interesting information about electronics and string tension.
Frank

[Paul Douglas]

Mike: thanks yet again for the extra info, the string tension thing is also really interesting and I feel I can embark on some improvements with a lot of knowledge behind me that I didn't even know I lacked before. I will of course report back on the through-stringing but don't think I've forgotten if it takes a while. Rather than hack about with the one I've made I'm going to make a slightly less rough body (I have plenty of spare 2x4) and try a router to make cavities for vol/tone pots and pickup, which just sits in a groove on this one. I've also ordered a P90 pickup - it was so cheap that it was only the price of 3 sets of strings, and I'd like to try the sound. It's the same brand as the bass pickup I just used and I'm happy with that. Once I've got that made and chosen some strings, I'll transfer the other hardware from the current model.

Sorry to pester but I do have one very brief extra question if you don't mind: I said in my original post that I'd turned the vol and tone to full on the Epiphone in order to compare with the 2x4 which lacks both of these. Does that really make the comparison direct? The 2x4 has a straight wire to the jack, the Epi has a straight wire with a bunch of other stuff connected to it, albeit set to "doesn't make a difference". Does the presence of the tone and volume pots really not make a difference? Maybe I should try by-passing them.

Frank: thanks for your input, also very intesting. I think future improvements would include a better bridge - something to look at for the Mk III model perhaps! I had to look up 3/8" but that is surprisingly narrow - total width of under 48mm for a 6-string. Maybe you'd want them to be closer together for an 8-string, I don't know. I don't think I will ever be venturing beyond 6 strings myself. The Epi has 58mm total spacing, so a lot more than JB's recommendation, and my 2x4 has 54mm as per the Duesenberg, and that is still a good bit more than 3/8". I was thinking I might try 52mm for next one as that is standard guitar spacing and there are loads of part available for that, but was worried it might be a bit narrow, but I think now I will try it. Easy enough to swap out bits of aluminium if I don't like it. It's great that you learned on your DIY guitar. Making one never crossed my mind before I got the Epiphone but I actually prefer the sound of my 2x4 which cost me under €50 excl strings; the Epi cost me almost €400 incl delivery but excl the new strings I put on it, so about 8 times as much. Ok, €400 wouldn't cover the cost of a weekend in Dublin, but still... I wouldn't buy it with hindsight. I bought a pretty cheap Behringer amp and that is good enough for me - until I learn how to build one

John: "learning lots from this post, thank you guys" - that last word didn't really need an S on the end! I just asked the questions. But thank you for thanking me

Paul

[Paul Douglas]

I'm adding this as a bit of extra information in case anyone who reads this thread finds it useful:

I have tried out the string tension calculator as recommended by Mike and, wow!, results not at all what I expected. The worst sounding string on both guitars is the third string, ie F# in Open D, the heaviest plain string. The effect gets worse the higher up the frets you go: it sounds fine open, absolutely awful by fret 12.

I watched the howto video for the tension calculator, and Stringjoy's general advice is to have the 3 plain strings about the same as each other in terms of tension, then the 3 wound strings also about the same as each other and a little higher tension than the plain strings. In their example, the tensions from highest string to lowest are roughly 18-18-18-20-20-20; the presenter says you won't hear much difference within about 1 pound either way, and suggests from 2 to 4 lbs higher tension in the wound strings.

My string tensions are absolutely nothing like that. On the Epiphone, using the GHS Lap-E set, the tensions in round numbers are 19-18-25-23-22-17. That jump up to string 3 must go some way to explaining the poor sound. I've tried de-tuning it to get the tension to 18 which makes it a D# - very much out of tune but played on its own it does sound better. Obviously it would be better to have a lighter string tuned to the correct pitch.

I checked what the tensions would be if tuned to Open E and they are even worse in terms of mismatch: 20-20-32-30-30-22. The measurements aren't great for the better-sounding 2x4 either: 20-20-32-30-30-22 using Ernie Ball Not Even Slinky strings, so the tension increase between the 2nd and 3rd strings is even more marked. The third string is heavy and a big jump in both cases: the string gauges of the plain strings in the GHS set goes 13-17-24 and in the EB set 12-16-24 which I suppose explains the even bigger jump.

Joystrings say that with very heavy strings the 6th can have tension a bit lower than the 4th and 5th because that can balance the tone. The 6th strings in both of my sets has a lower tension, though it's a lot, not a little.

My first task seems to be to source a couple of lighter 3rd strings and see what kind of difference that makes. Fingers crossed!

[Michael Kiese]

My string tensions are absolutely nothing like that. On the Epiphone, using the GHS Lap-E set, the tensions in round numbers are 19-18-25-23-22-17. That jump up to string 3 must go some way to explaining the poor sound. I've tried de-tuning it to get the tension to 18 which makes it a D# - very much out of tune but played on its own it does sound better. Obviously it would be better to have a lighter string tuned to the correct pitch.

I checked what the tensions would be if tuned to Open E and they are even worse in terms of mismatch: 20-20-32-30-30-22. The measurements aren't great for the better-sounding 2x4 either: 20-20-32-30-30-22 using Ernie Ball Not Even Slinky strings, so the tension increase between the 2nd and 3rd strings is even more marked. The third string is heavy and a big jump in both cases: the string gauges of the plain strings in the GHS set goes 13-17-24 and in the EB set 12-16-24 which I suppose explains the even bigger jump.

Joystrings say that with very heavy strings the 6th can have tension a bit lower than the 4th and 5th because that can balance the tone. The 6th strings in both of my sets has a lower tension, though it's a lot, not a little.

My first task seems to be to source a couple of lighter 3rd strings and see what kind of difference that makes. Fingers crossed!

Hey Paul,

See, there you go! You've just discovered and identified a key factor. The current set of strings you are using, paired with your specific tuning and your scale length is producing an unbalanced set.

I create custom sets of individual strings. You can purchase individual strings at your local guitar store. Conversely, you can order them online on a site like https://www.stringsbymail.com or any others.

It's a long journey of exploration and discovery to figure out what types of strings you like, but it's very rewarding. There are different string metals/alloys, and there are different types of windings for the thick string (flatwound, rollerwound, roundwound, etc.)

Again, there is no right/wrong. It's what you like and based upon what you discover.

The main thing I learned is that with steel, making your own custom sets is imperative. The price difference of ordering your own custom sets vs buying a set of "name brand" strings is negligible. That right there drastically improves your tone and how your guitar feels and responds. As long as you are dedicated and informed in your choices, the journey will be very rewarding.

[Michael Kiese]

Sorry to pester but I do have one very brief extra question if you don't mind: I said in my original post that I'd turned the vol and tone to full on the Epiphone in order to compare with the 2x4 which lacks both of these. Does that really make the comparison direct? The 2x4 has a straight wire to the jack, the Epi has a straight wire with a bunch of other stuff connected to it, albeit set to "doesn't make a difference". Does the presence of the tone and volume pots really not make a difference? Maybe I should try by-passing them.

Hey Paul,

If I understand your question correctly, you're asking whether Vol pots and tone pots are necessary. The short answer is no. One can directly wire a pickup to an output jack.

The question then is, what are you gaining and what are you trading off.

In my opinion, you need at least 1 pot, a volume control. Why? Because there is a pragmatic need to adjust your volume directly on the instrument while you are performing. It's a hassle to go to the amp to make fine adjustments. In addition, your guitar will be more prone to feedback if it's always FULL ON. Taking this into consideration, my personal assessment is that any perceived tonal benefit of wiring a pickup directly to an output jack is negligible compared to the benefits of having a volume pot.

Also, Volume pots act like low pass filters if you know how to pair the resistance value with your guitar pickup. This is where having a decade box of resistors comes in handy. Hook your decade box in between the path of the pickup and the output jack, and play test in real time how the guitar sounds with resistances from 500K down to 1K. It will teach you a lot.

If you decide to install a tone pot in addition to the volume pot, the value of the tone pot doesn't matter much because you add a capacitor to the tone pot (that's what makes it a tone pot). The capacitor changes the nature of how the pot behaves. Long story short: the value of your volume pot matters most for how it affects your sound. Tone pot values don't affect your sound so much, but their capacitor values do. But test it and find out for yourself. Don't take my word for it.

Like we said before, the steel is such a simple instrument. Not much to go wrong. Therefore it forces you to work with the few variables that make the most difference in tone/feel. String material, string gauges, and values for pots and caps. You get the most bang for your buck there. After honing in on that stuff, you can mess with other things like specific designs (string through body, etc), and pickup types.

All us guitar players seem to make the same common mistake of immediately changing out pickups which are very expensive, and very few guitar players actually make the effort to understand strings. The strings themselves are what produce the sound, so we should start there. But most often people end there, or never even discover that because we all got accustomed to purchasing ready made sets of strings from the store and don't think about it.

A string is a string is a string. They all behave in the same way whether they are on a guitar, violin, bass, piano or cables holding up the golden gate bridge. For musical instruments, all that really matters for strings is the type of metal, its construction, and its gauge. Just experimenting with those 3 variables alone will yield bountiful fruit and will teach you a lot.

Now that I've done so much experimentation with strings, I now know that plain steel strings are going to sound the same regardless if they are D'addario, Ernie Ball, GHS, etc. Given the same material, Nickel plated steel, the only difference is gauge. So there won't be much difference between brands. Therefore, you can then just compare price and see if you're being taken for a ride with sensationalist marketing. That's just my opinion based upon the work I did.

Knowledge is power.

This is countless hours of productive experimentation and discovery. It's lots of fun and very personally rewarding. You learn a lot, your tone improves, you don't have to spend tons of money, and you spend a lot of time engaged and focused. That's been my journey and I've had a lot of fun.

Enjoy!

[Paul Douglas]

See, there you go! You've just discovered and identified a key factor.

Well, I didn't exactly discover it for myself!! Would never even have crossed my mind without your help.

The current set of strings you are using, paired with your specific tuning and your scale length is producing an unbalanced set ... The main thing I learned is that with steel, making your own custom sets is imperative. The price difference of ordering your own custom sets vs buying a set of "name brand" strings is negligible. That right there drastically improves your tone and how your guitar feels and responds. As long as you are dedicated and informed in your choices, the journey will be very rewarding.

I can really see that - the same set of strings on the same guitar but tuned up a tone higher dramatically changes both the tensions and the ratios between strings, and it's all different again on another guitar. This is brilliant. A set made up from individual strings from a fairly local shop will actually cost less than buying a special lap-steel set and I can choose the exact gauges I want. I'll be ordering some sets on Monday and I can't wait to try them. And as you say, this is hugely cheaper and simpler than swapping out pickups. I'll report back on how things go but, in the meantime, a huge thank you for all this - feels like a real game changer to me.

[Michael Kiese]

Well, I didn't exactly discover it for myself!! Would never even have crossed my mind without your help.

All I did was point you in a direction, but you actually made the journey. So kudos to you as well!

And as you say, this is hugely cheaper and simpler than swapping out pickups. I'll report back on how things go but, in the meantime, a huge thank you for all this - feels like a real game changer to me.

I’m very glad to be of service to you! Please share this knowledge with others as well. We all benefit when people share. Unfortunately, we live in a world where people have forgotten that.

Enjoy!