Palm blocking problem

[Chao Kang Lee]

Hello everyone, I am a new member who joined the forum yesterday!

I currently encounter the following two problems
1. When I was learning palm blocking recently, I encountered a problem. The gap between my palm and pinky prevented me from stopping the string sound.

2. I use jeff newman's right hand alpha method and the tip of my middle finger always touches the upper string. This troubles me very much. I have tried various angles for a month but still cannot solve the problem of the middle finger. Please help me. Thank you. Everyone

[Marco Schouten]

Point 1: Move your hand forward a bit. It should not be above the same strings all the time, but move forward or backward when needed. (loke you would do with your bar)

Point 2: It's not needed to hook your pinky to the first string. Just stretch it and let it rest on the first string. Some steelers like to hook their pinky though.

[Dennis Detweiler]

I"m trying to picture your hand from your discription? When you say middle finger, is it the finger next to your pinky finger? If so, it sounds like you need to curl that finger under your palm? Only the pinky finger should should be straight across the strings. At least that's the technique I use and I have no problem palm blocking.

[Bobby D. Jones]

If your hands are thin up and down through the palm, It is hard to palm block to near impossible.
You will have to figure out how you can block 1 string at a time, Or combination of strings. Pick blocking, side of fingers, Ring finger on left hand sliding bar back, Little finger and ring finger on right hand.

Mr. Franklin has a great lesson on You-Tube about blocking, other than palm blocking, That may help you.

[Douglas Schuch]

You are not alone! I've been playing for 13 years (still a novice, though) and I have never been any good at palm-blocking. I use it only when pick-blocking just isn't possible - like going from a grip on the higher strings down to 10/8/6. Paul F. says he spend years trying to master it until people finally told him to not bother and just play the way that works for him. So that's my advice - if palm-blocking is not working, but you can pick-block, then do that. But I will say it's best if you can do both.

If you decide to pursue pick-blocking, there is Paul F's instruction. But I've found Joe Wright's technique seems to work better for me. His extensive lessons on this are still available on the old Sierra Steel Guitar site. This site is not SSL (doesn't use current standard incryption for security). But you should not be entering any personal info, just watching his lessons, so I think it's no problem (others can correct me if I'm wrong).

http://sierrasteels.com/lessons/lessons-index.html

Good luck!

[Brian Spratt]

... the tip of my middle finger always touches the upper string. This troubles me ...

I believe I know exactly what you mean. I struggled with this early on. The key for me was getting my fingerpicks bent, shaped, and secured to my fingers in just the proper ergonomical way so that my actual fingers could stay away from the strings enough to prevent exactly the problem you're describing. Even the most subtle change in shape to your finger picks can make a big difference here. I spent hours shaping and reshaping my finger picks early on until I found a shape and fit that allowed me to pick cleanly and keep my fingers from touching the strings when I didn't want them to.

[Dennis Detweiler]

I forgot about mentioning the pick shape that Brian mentioned. When I started playing "decades ago" I kept reshaping my picks as time went on. I eventually ended up with them at nearly 90 degrees to get my hand/palm curled and at a good position for blocking. After analyzing my blocking now, I pick block and palm block in combination without realizing it.It depends on which strings and if blocking single notes or two or more notes together and where I am on the neck. Mixed bag, but it works.

[Fred Treece]

tip of my middle finger always touches the upper string

If you mean the flesh of your fingertip is touching the string rather than the pick on that finger, the solution may be experimenting with shaping the pick, as has been mentioned. It could also just be part of the learning/muscle memory process and repositioning your hand.

One of the exercises in the aforementioned Joe Wright videos involves simply placing your thumb and fingers on alternate sets of 3 adjacent strings. This “teaches” the fingers where the strings are. If one or more of your fingers ends up with a string between the pick and the flesh of your finger, that is an unwanted result and your job is to correct it. Repeat as necessary until you can’t make the mistake.

The exercise can then be applied to all chord grips.

[Chao Kang Lee]

... the tip of my middle finger always touches the upper string. This troubles me ...

I believe I know exactly what you mean. I struggled with this early on. The key for me was getting my fingerpicks bent, shaped, and secured to my fingers in just the proper ergonomical way so that my actual fingers could stay away from the strings enough to prevent exactly the problem you're describing. Even the most subtle change in shape to your finger picks can make a big difference here. I spent hours shaping and reshaping my finger picks early on until I found a shape and fit that allowed me to pick cleanly and keep my fingers from touching the strings when I didn't want them to.

Thank you Brian
This is a picture of my hand
I tried to adjust the pick angle as you said
But it is still impossible to completely avoid touching the upper string
Moreover, the fixed ring of the pick will always touch the upper strings, which really bothers me.
[/img]

[Dave Magram]

I tried to adjust the pick angle as you said. But it is still impossible to completely avoid touching the upper string
Moreover, the fixed ring of the pick will always touch the upper strings, which really bothers me.

Hi Chao,

The angle of your fingerpick blades looks okay to me.

Those look like Dunlop fingerpicks--are they?
There are two problems with Dunlop fingerpicks:
- The bands get wider where the ends go on your fingernail--which makes them tend to catch on adjacent strings.
- The sides of the bands are flared for comfort--but the flaring also tends to catch on adjacent strings.

You can either:
- Spend some time with a needle-nose pliers and flatten out the flaring on the Dunlops, and then try to reshape the bands so they don't catch on the strings, or
- Buy some National fingerpicks, which do not have flared bands, nor do the bands get wider on the ends. (National fingerpicks were the standard fingerpicks in the 1950s and beyond for great players like Emmons, Green, Brumley, etc.)

I always spend 15 to 20 minutes re-shaping new fingerpicks until they each fit my fingers like little gloves--which helps to reduce the chance that they will catch on the strings, makes them very comfortable, and also reduce the chance that they will come off.

- Dave

[Dennis Detweiler]

As Dave said. It looks like it does need a little needle nose plier work on the open end of the picks to get them tighter on top. I don't see the pinky finger out and that may change the cup of the hand a little. You might try pulling your palm back a little more and result in that middle finger pick angle being a little less curled? That would get the knuckle on your middle finger off of the string.

[Chao Kang Lee]

As Dave said. It looks like it does need a little needle nose plier work on the open end of the picks to get them tighter on top. I don't see the pinky finger out and that may change the cup of the hand a little. You might try pulling your palm back a little more and result in that middle finger pick angle being a little less curled? That would get the knuckle on your middle finger off of the string.

Thank you Dennis, but as long as I pull my hand back, it will enter the gap position of the palm and I can't mute the strings. That's why I am so troubled. Doesn't your middle finger touch the upper string? Thanks

[Fred Treece]

Is there some rule that says certain pick hand fingers can’t touch the strings? If there is, I am in big trouble.

Seriously. Palm blocking is not dependent on fingers not touching the strings. I am not an expert in the technique, but I have heard that one approach to is to assume that the palm resting on the strings is the default position for the hand, and only rises up to allow for strings to be picked. If anything, I would say there is far worse technique than having your fingers on the strings and ready to play.

The other thing to keep in mind about palm blocking is that it is a very tiny physical movement. Raise the palm up just enough to sound a picked string. This is one of the most difficult things to control. If your hand is flying off the deck for every picked note and banging back down on the strings to mute, well.. stop doing that

I do sympathize with you about the space beyond the palm that is left open by the outstretched pinky finger. I can’t block any string that happens to be in that space either. I don’t believe the objective is to have the side of the palm and the outstretched pinky block all 10 (or 12) strings at once. In spite of that, as has been mentioned, the middle finger of the bar hand can help out. If you hold the bar in such a way that the middle finger extends past the nose of the bar, it can mute any string that is either very inconvenient or physically impossible to do any other way.

The thing that finally got me to stop obsessing about how to mute/block was to just start playing music and figuring out whatever method worked best for getting rid of the unwanted noise. For me, strict dogmatic adherence to palm blocking or pick blocking or tilting the bar upward or smacking my forehead down on the strings was never going to work as well as learning something about all the viable techniques and using whichever one is the most convenient at the time.

Hope this helps. If it doesn’t, sorry for taking up so much space here.

Also, read the esteemed Dave Magram’s post on the topic from this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=200502&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Brian Spratt]

I agree completely with others here that one thing you can do right away to help is getting different finger picks. Those look like Dunlop (or at least similar to Dunlop) and they were completely unusable to me for the very reasons you're encountering. The unnecessary bulk on the back side of my finger interfered with adjacent strings, buzzing and muting when I didn't want them to.

Get some National brand fingerpicks. There are a couple different version of them but shape-wise they are all the same, so just pick one. I've used the stainless steel and also the nickel alloy. The difference in tone or anything else is extremely subtle and not worth worrying about. You mentioned Right Hand Alpha... Jeff always told guys to get rid of the Dunlop picks for this very reason as well. He had his own signature picks made for a while. I have a pair, and I can tell you they are shaped quite similar to National picks.

Here's a picture of my hand with National picks. You can see that the natural resting position of my hand looks very similar to yours. The biggest difference I see is that the tips of my fingers are SLIGHTLY more vertical than yours. For example, your middle finger looks like its nearly horizontal at the tip... too much of that results the "claw" grip Jeff warns against (although I've seen players play fantastically with a "claw" technique, so this is all subjective).

I would say try to VERY slightly roll your hand to the right and try to make the most of your "peak knuckle", as Jeff describes in Right Hand Alpha. This will have the effect of pulling the tips of your fingers into a slightly straighter, more vertical position and less towards being flat across the strings. Experimenting with this in conjunction with experimenting with bending some new (preferably National) fingerpicks should yield some improvement.

[Marco Schouten]

Did you try stretching your ring finger and pinky instead of curling them?

[Dennis Detweiler]

Chao, the only part of my hand that touches the strings is the end of my picks, stretched out pinky finger and my palm. Brian is showing the more proper position. The tip of my pinky stays down and lifts all of it when picking. Is your wrist and elbow at 90 degrees with your guitar? Tuck your elbow into your right side.

[Dave Magram]

Hi Chao,

What many new PSG players don't realize is that there are several different ways to palm-block, besides Jeff Newman's version:
- "Little finger fully extended". Examples: Lloyd Green, Tom Brumley, and many more.
- "Ring and/or little finger curled under". Examples: JD Maness, Hal Rugg, and many more.
- "Hybrid of palm-blocking and 'fingertip blocking' (aka 'pick-blocking')": Examples: Buddy Emmons, Buddy Charleton, and several more, in which thumb-picked notes are blocked with the ball of the right thumb, and finger-picked notes are blocked with the tip of the right hand ring finger.

When I was learning to play pedal steel with palm-blocking, I tried to use the "little finger fully extended" technique, but I couldn't get it to work for me because where the crease in my palm was located.
So I began using the "little finger curled under" technique and it worked fine.
On fast single-string passages, I would sometimes switch to Buddy Emmons' "hybrid" technique (not that I could ever do it as well as Buddy!) .

Since then, I've also learned how to do "fingertip blocking" (aka "pick-blocking") after hearing Paul Franklin play "Pick It Apart - Mark O'Connor" (at 190 bpm!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJkBnt8Uww8 at about 1:09 minutes.

And like many other PSG players on the Forum, I now find myself switching from one of these blocking techniques to another without even thinking about it.
My point is, don't get locked into doing things just one way. Master one, and then try adding one of the others to your skillset.

Take a look at JD Maness' masterful playing...
Here's a screenshot of JD Maness with the Desert Rose band using the "ring & little finger curled under" technique.


Screenshot from: "Desert Rose Band Chris Hillman The Byrds Related Live Austin City Limits Aug 5th 1987 Herb Pedersen" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfOm9-QI95A&t=171s at about 2:40 minutes.

I hope you find some of this helpful.

- Dave

[Bob Sigafoos]

I would say try to VERY slightly roll your hand to the right and try to make the most of your "peak knuckle",

Yeah thats the first thing I noticed too. The eagle claw position you show has too much curling of your two fingers. Get that first joint on your first finger a little higher kind of like a pyramid shape that will force your two fingers to straighten out a little more.

[Fred Treece]

Great shot of that pick hand, Brian Spratt.
Much good wisdom in this thread. The pyramid position - that is a gold nugget for sure.

Do try a bunch of different fingerpicks. I went from Dunlop to National to a couple of weird designs that seemed like a waste of time and money, but it was an experiment that had to be run because fingerpicks are a necessary evil for playing pedal steel. I finally settled on Acri picks, which required no shaping and are the most comfortable and stable design for me. Others have told me they hate them, so, different strokes. Once you get used to whatever you settle on, your technique and your tone will improve.

Also experiment with how much blade on the pick extends beyond your fingertip. I like mine right up close, but others have them way out past and at a variety of angles - from curled completely around the fingertip to aimed straight down.

This photo of Buddy Emmons’ paw finds its way into just about every discussion of right hand technique.


And here is a link to even more research and development
viewtopic.php?t=323447

[Bobby D. Jones]

It looks like the picks are to big for your fingers. When you wrap the finger wrappers over each other, Some problems will appear.
1st. Trying to adjust the wrap on one side will change the wrap other side.
2nd. The wrap on top can hit and catch on the next string to the one you are picking.

It will help fitting the picks, Shortening the wrappers on the picks till there is a small space between the wrappers when properly fit. That open space is needed so you can adjust each side to make a perfect oval, To fit your finger.

I suggest trying a longer pointed thumb pick, So you can raise the front of your hand. Get a long thumb pick, And try it, Then shorten the thumb pick a little at a time if needed.

We are all built different. Watch Mr. Lloyd Greens hand, His thumb pick is long, Allowing his hand to align with the strings.

[Fred Treece]

I wonder, when does too much advice start to be no help at all?

I don’t think anyone has given bad advice here, but some of it, including my own, seems to say something akin to “there is no wrong way, but there is a way that is better for you.” That would have been frustrating for me as a beginner.

Such is the way with pedal steel guitar, though. It is still an instrument just out of its infancy, and the definitively correct path for anyone and everyone has not yet been established, and may not ever be.

I think the Paul Franklin Method Foundation course is worth mentioning. If you really want to get your technique off the launch pad, you can’t do any better than having one of the greatest players ever as a personal tutor.

[Greg Vincent]

I’m struck by how completely different JayDee’s and Buddy’s hand positions are
—and yet they both absolutely mastered the instrument.

Good luck to you in bringing more exposure to the pedal steel in Taiwan!

[Greg Vincent]

Two more things:

I really like the ProPiks with TWO (narrower) finger straps —much easier to bend and shape.

Looking at your photo, you appear to have the top strap bending OVER the bottom strap. This can cause it to catch on strings. Maybe try having the top strap UNDER the bottom strap.

Here’s a pic of how I bend my ProPiks:

[Bobby Hearn]

Chao, your picks look like they need to be more conformed to your fingers as others have said, and your thumb pick looks a little loose. But one thing is for sure, whether you’re palm blocking or pick blocking, those things aren’t mastered overnight or by reading a one size fits all book. It takes a long time and a lot of practice and patience to master blocking. It’s the most complicated part of learning the instrument in my opinion. I still struggle sometimes. I use pick blocking mostly, but sometimes palm when necessary. Minnows or jigs…they both catch crappie! Keep practicing!

[Fred Treece]

I’m struck by how completely different JayDee’s and Buddy’s hand positions are
—and yet they both absolutely mastered the instrument.

That pic is not an accurate example of JayDee’s (or anyone I know of) default pick-hand position. He is either between licks, or in the middle of a slide, or something other than poised to play the next phrase.

Here is a better example.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DqQ7CMJyp ... ACAQ%3D%3D