Need help!! Trying Junior Brown’s C13 tuning on my 8string

[Nathan Farlow]

Don’t think I’m holding my mouth right. So I haven’t found anything that tells the best string gauges to use for it. I bought Andy Volk’s “Slide Rules book awhile back because I stumbled across it while researching tunings because I hadn’t found one that truly I’m a fan of yet. Been doing G6/Em7 since I put my benders on and it’s fine and makes the transition to 8-string from 6 easier but it’s just kind of meh. So saw the Junior Brown C13 tuning in the Andy Volk book and I’m a huge JB fan so I set out to try it. Ordered a custom set off StringJoy and just finally getting around to changing over to it today.

This is the tuning in the book
(In parenthesis is my interpretation)
G (high 5th) (.010)
E (high 3rd) (.014)
C (high root) (.015)
A (6th) (.020p)
G (5th) (.024w)
E (3rd) (.034)
C (root) (.054)
Bb (low 7th) (.070)

Am I correct in my interpretation? Popped my high G when tuning it up. I found this photo when originally researching it and surely he doesn’t use that .014 for the high G? Or am I an octave high on the first 4 strings?

Thanks

[Joe A. Roberts]

That G you used should have worked, it was probably binding on the bridge or nut which can happen on those skinny strings. What scale length are you using?
The G being too thin sounding it a common issue you'll hear about so I have heard about people using really heavy strings on G... Personally I'd just shift everything down to A6th.

Those low strings on the back of that guitar seem crazy thick too, .054 for C seems like way too much, and especially that low Bb unless he is tuning it an octave lower.
And why only .15 for the C? String pulls?

[Nathan Farlow]

That G you used should have worked, it was probably binding on the bridge or nut which can happen on those skinny strings. What scale length are you using?
The G being too thin sounding it a common issue you'll hear about so I have heard about people using really heavy strings on G... Personally I'd just shift everything down to A6th.

Those low strings on the back of that guitar seem crazy thick too, .054 for C seems like way too much, and especially that low Bb unless he is tuning it an octave lower.
And why only .15 for the C? String pulls?

Yeah, I tried to replace the nut with a rollling one when installing the benders(I ordered the Certano kit that came with 2 benders, and a bridge with rolling saddles, and the rolling nut - bridge worked perfectly) and the nut was too wide. I have one of those SX 8-string laps. It’s a solid axe (literally a solid block of Ash). Anyways, yeah it probably was the nut.

The .054 and .070, yeah those are for a low octave C and a low octave Bb(baritone guitar range). Listening to Junior play, sounds tonally correct. Says it’s 22 & 3/4.

Thanks

[Roland Sturm]

I think your interpretation is for a different tuning. When I look at the picture you posted, I would guess at something like this: (high to low) E C A G E C Bb C.
So the top string in the picture may be intended for E and the bottom string (70) for a C an octave down from the C in the usual tuning. Then the 54, mmh, could be as high as Bb or could be as low as G or F


For what you seem to be after, I have an 12 for the high G (1st string), an 18 for the high C (3rd string), a 46 for the low C (7 string) and a 56 for the A (bottom string, which you want to tune up to Bb).

In summary: you may show a Jules Ah See tuning, but want a Junior Brown. So add a high G, move all the other strings one down, and don't use the 70.

[Alex Cattaneo]

I actually put a 014 on my Guyatone for a high G and I like it so far! I had a 12 but that was little too thin for my taste, and I didn’t have 013 on hand. In any case, 010 seems too thin. Joe Ely recommends 012, and on a small scale neck (22.5), I would try 013 or 014. It’s cool to see the JB is using a 014!

For a 22.5” scale, I would go 13, 15 and 18 for g, e and c. John Ely recommends 12, 14 and 17, but I’m guessing that’s for a 24.5” scale guitar.

[Mike Neer]

These would be incorrect gauges for Junior Brown’s C13 and more suitable for Jules Ah See’s C13.
The low Bb in Junior’s tuning would only be in the .040 range. (
As far as .014 for the high G, that is too heavy in my opinion.

[D Schubert]

I have that tuning on my Stringmaster, and use the 8 string E13 sets that are sold on SGF for the JB tuning. That's 0.012" on top and 0.042" on the bottom.

[Tony Oresteen]

What is the scale length of your instrument?

[Nathan Farlow]

I have that tuning on my Stringmaster, and use the 8 string E13 sets that are sold on SGF for the JB tuning. That's 0.012" on top and 0.042" on the bottom.

gotcha. sounds closer but not going to lie, I do love having that baritone range Bb and C on my guitar. Surely the .042 isn't tuned down to low Bb?

Thanks

[Nathan Farlow]

What is the scale length of your instrument?

it is 22-3/4. Thanks

[Mike Neer]

I have that tuning on my Stringmaster, and use the 8 string E13 sets that are sold on SGF for the JB tuning. That's 0.012" on top and 0.042" on the bottom.

gotcha. sounds closer but not going to lie, I do love having that baritone range Bb and C on my guitar. Surely the .042 isn't tuned down to low Bb?

Thanks

The Bb is only supposed to be a whole step lower than the C.

[Nathan Farlow]

I have that tuning on my Stringmaster, and use the 8 string E13 sets that are sold on SGF for the JB tuning. That's 0.012" on top and 0.042" on the bottom.

gotcha. sounds closer but not going to lie, I do love having that baritone range Bb and C on my guitar. Surely the .042 isn't tuned down to low Bb?

Thanks

The Bb is only supposed to be a whole step lower than the C.

yessir, it is.

[Allan Revich]

(In parenthesis is my interpretation)
G (high 5th) (.010)
E (high 3rd) (.014)
C (high root) (.015)
A (6th) (.020p)
G (5th) (.024w)
E (3rd) (.034)
C (root) (.054)
Bb (low 7th) (.070)

These gauges might work if the two lowest strings were a full octave below normal C6 tuning. Otherwise they are completely unworkable.

Something like this would be reasonable;

G (high 5th) (.010)
E (high 3rd) (.014)
C (high root) (.015)
A (6th) (.020p)
G (5th) (.024w)
E (3rd) (.032)
C (root) (.036)
Bb (low 7th) (.040)

[Nic Neufeld]

JAS C13 and Junior C13 are basically the same tuning for seven strings, just the former adds a low C on the bottom, the latter adds a high G on top. A .070 is what I use for my LOW C...ain't no way to tune that up to the correct Bb unless you are using a, I dunno, piano scale length.

[Joe A. Roberts]

Just came across this post by Ron Whitfield from 2003:

“As Lynn mentioned using a .015 at the top to solve the thinny sound for a G, I needed at least a .016 to get it to sound correct on my Rick B8. Not too stiff and I've not broken one yet.”

Wow! At least a .016!

I personally like a reentrant D on top:

d
E
C
A
G
E
C
Bb

[Dave Mudgett]

You can take the guesswork out of string gauges by using a string tension calculator. You're using stringjoy strings - why not use their string tension calculator, which is specifically designed for their strings - https://tension.stringjoy.com/?

Typical "nominal" string tensions for lap/console string sets are around 30 pounds per string - plus or minus whatever you like, and sometimes there are good reasons to go over or under - e.g., if you just like a lower or higher tension, or want to pull a string. For hi-lo G4-E4-C4-A3-G3-E3-C3-Bb2, that yields around 12-13p, 15p, 18-19p OR 18-20w, 24w, 28w, 32w, 42w, 48w - these are slightly heavier than 30 lb, go a gauge lighter for a little lighter than 30 lb.

I assume 54 and 70 for the bottom two are for an octave lower - the tensions at C3 and Bb2 are around 51 and 67 pounds, respectively. They might not break, but that seems unreasonably high to me. But I get around 13 and 17 pounds for the octave-lower C2 and Bb1, respectively. Those would feel real floppy to me, but if one is going for a floppy baritone guitar type of feel, that might work.

As far as breaking strings go - that .010 for G4 should in principle tune up with no problem. But light strings at high tension are more sensitive to imperfections in anything. Issue with string, burr in nut or saddle, pulling a string too hard, whatever. Tension is around 20 pounds for G4 at 22.75" scale, which is light to my tastes also. Even pedal steel at 24-24.25" scale typically uses .011, .0115, or .012 gauge strings for G#4, which is bent up to A4 constantly. Of course, that is the pedal steel string most likely to break. But .010, even at the longer scale, sounds very thin to me. I don't know anybody who uses .010 for pedal steel G#4, although I imagine there are some players who do.

In general, within reason, increasing string gauge from a reasonable nominal tension at a particular pitch does not necessarily increase string breakage. The reason is that although the string tension goes up, so does the cross-sectional area, and thus the tensile strength, of the string. There is a point in the string tension vs. gauge curve where it becomes very nonlinear and the tension starts going up much faster than the tensile strength and the string pretty much always breaks. But I often find that moderate increases in tension actually reduce string breakage. For example, I run some Telecasters with a 12-52 set with a 20p third so I can still bend it a whole tone with no wonkiness. I have never, ever broken a string on those Teles. I would break strings with 9-42 sets all the time, 10-46 sets periodically, but almost never break strings on 11-48 sets. Heavy strings are heresy among many if not most electric guitar players, but I set gauges for these 12-52 sets at around 25-26 pounds per string, and they play just fine, can be bent with no problem, permit rapid alternate flatpicking as on an acoustic guitar, and never break, at least in my experience.

BTW - looking at your photo, I read hi-low 14, 15, (17 or 19, hard to tell for sure), 20p, 24w, 30, 54, 70, not 10, 14, 15, 20p, 24w, 34, 54, 70.

[Mike Nihen]

The photo is of my guit-steel. The tape I used bled though the tape and melted into the finish. I should shoot myself later. Please disregard.

[Shea Stevenson]

Where’s the “f”? I don’t get why it’s called “13” without the F….

[Allan Revich]

Where’s the “f”? I don’t get why it’s called “13” without the F….

Every possible note within a chord does not need to be present when it’s played. Chords are inferred from the notes played. In a band context a 13th only needs 3 notes, the 3rd, the 7th, and the 13th (6th).
1st and 5th covered by bass and other instruments. 9th and 11th are optional.

There are even lap steel tunings that don’t include the root note.

[Shea Stevenson]

Where’s the “f”? I don’t get why it’s called “13” without the F….

Every possible note within a chord does not need to be present when it’s played. Chords are inferred from the notes played. In a band context a 13th only needs 3 notes, the 3rd, the 7th, and the 13th (6th).
1st and 5th covered by bass and other instruments. 9th and 11th are optional.

There are even lap steel tunings that don’t include the root note.

Yeah that’s very true…. But he says the G is too high..? And there’s always so many octaves, plus you already have the 6th as mentioned. Also I guess I am use to seeing it as “add13” maybe… I don’t see C13 as often. It’s a flat 7 too huh?

[Mike Neer]

You don’t usually use the 11 in a 13 chord because it clashes with the 3rd and creates a suspension. It is more common to see a #11, which avoids that clash.

[Jim Rossen]

I play the C13 tuning with string 8 Bb one step below the string 7 C and am happy with the C6 8 string SIT set from the forum store plus a .011 string for the high G. The .054 string is not used.

Jim

[Jeffrey McFadden]

Where’s the “f”? I don’t get why it’s called “13” without the F….

Every possible note within a chord does not need to be present when it’s played. Chords are inferred from the notes played. In a band context a 13th only needs 3 notes, the 3rd, the 7th, and the 13th (6th).
1st and 5th covered by bass and other instruments. 9th and 11th are optional.

There are even lap steel tunings that don’t include the root note.

What I don't understand is why it's called a 13 tuning when the 6th is just... a 6th.
To be a 13th, doesn't it have to be in the next octave up? I mean, I live and breathe C6, no pedals. I don't see you having a 6 note up an octave, which would be a 13th. What am I missing here?

[Joe A. Roberts]

Barney Isaacs, among others, called C6th Amin7th tuning. And there is an argument to be made that the base tuning could be called that.
But he played C13th, with the Bb down there, so calling it C13th would make more sense.
Unless you want to call it Amin7b9th

On a similar note, should Jerry Byrd's C6/A7th be spelled as a chord regardless of the voicing (as is convention) and instead and be called A7#9th?

E
C
A
G
E
C#
C (or B# )
A

John Ely came up with a very powerful tuning he calls A Diatonic:

E
C#
B
A
G#
F#
F
D

But F of course is not diatonic to A... The closest "correct" name I could think of is "F# harmonic minor".

I have read/heard more than one best players of all time call this C#min or E13th:
E
C#
G#
E
A#
F#
d#
f#

There are an endless amount of inconsequential semantic questions to get sucked into.
(How to name tunings, order of strings low to high or high to low, should it be written 'C6' or 'C6th', the "chromatic" strings on the E9th pedal steel, etc)