MSA Universal project questions

[Patrick Timmins]

So, just got a new project to work on once I have an empty bench.
It appears to be an early 80s MSA "The Universal".




It is going to need a complete rebuild due to 40 year old lithium grease everywhere, gunking up the changer. Springs are shot and no pickup. Other than that, it's a good looking lacquer guitar.






Since I started my shop earlier this year, I have done about 12 conversions from universal to extended E9 for customers. Since this one actually states it is a universal on the apron, I'm thinking I should rebuild it as a universal.

It has a really wacky copedent that I can't find on any of Bobs pages. Most of the foot pedals are lowers. Does anyone know who's copedent this is?




Not being a universal player, What copedent should I use that keeps it closest to a modern Emmons E9 copedent? Or alternatively, is there a standard universal copedent that the majority of uni players are using these days?

It has a 3 raise and 3 lower changer, 6 pedals and 5 knees.

Thanks,

Patrick.

[Paul Hubbard]

Patrick,
I couldn't figure out that present copedent either. Here's the one I use because Jeff Newman put out a course using it, it's pretty easy to convert C6th tabs over to B6th and very similar to Buddy's E9. Please disregard the parenthesis, they refer to my tuning nuts. You would have to hunt down an extra pedal, but it may be worth it. Looks like a beautiful steel and I hope this helps. Just let me know if I can help you out and keep us updated on the project.
Good Luck,
Paul





String Guage Tone 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LKL LKV LKR RKL RKR
1 .13 F# +G
2 .15 Eb -C#
3 .12 G# +A ( )
4 .14 E +F# +E * (+F#) -Eb
5 .17 B (+C#) (+C#) +C# -A#
6 .20 G# (+A) +A# -G
7 .26W F# ( ) -F
8 .30 E -D * +F (-Eb)
9 .36 B +C# +C +D -A#
10 .42 G# (+A)
11 .54 E -Eb +F
12 .68 B -G# +C#

*-Indicates to tune string w/ RKR & pedal 6 engaged together.

[Dennis Detweiler]

I use Jeff Newman's U-12 tuning on both of my MSA's. It gets you where you need to go.
I've gutted and reassembled both of my guitars. I took the changers apart and cleaned them. I used slightly lighter springs from Ace Hardware which created a much lighter and smoother knee and pedal action.
You'll need 7 floor pedals.

[Johnny Cox]

Those are great guitars.

[Jim Pitman]

I gotta wonder if that's Maurice's B6 Universal copedent. Not sure. I haven't checked it.
Ooops - just changed my mind. The open tuning is E9.

[Patrick Timmins]

Thanks guys.

Would this work as an acceptable copedent for 6 foot pedals and 5 knees?



Man, this had one of the nastiest changers I have ever pulled.




But they cleaned up really nice after a nice long ultrasonic bath.

[b0b]

Would this work as an acceptable copedent for 6 foot pedals and 5 knees?

I don't think so. The "home" foot position on C6th is over P5 an P6. Without the P6 equivalent next to P5 you will miss a lot of standard C6th chord positions.

For some years I played with the P7 changes (your P6) on a knee lever. All of your levers are dedicated to E9th though, so that wouldn't work. I tend to agree with Dennis Detweiler (above) that you would need 7 pedals to do E9/B6.

Ever thought of D13th?

[K Maul]

Why not just let RKR also lower string 8E-D? Then you’d have the same C6 type change when you let off on LKR. That raises 4 Eb-E and RKR lowers 8 to D. I’d forget the string 10 change on pedal 6 as well as the lower B-Bb change. That covers the basic B6 changes. Unless I’m missing something. I’m not a master C6/B6 player but that’s what I used on my Universals.

[Bob Carlucci]

Patrick... As long as you are that far in, do yourself a favor, and install this setup-

https://www.psgparts.com/Anchor-Spring- ... 00-205.htm

Priced right and will transform the playability of that guitar...
Also, take it from someone that played MSA guitars for decades.. They can be a very dark sounding guitar, which some really like, but it was not my bag.. If I had your guitar I would go with a humbucker that could be used with a 3 way switch. front coil/rear coil/both coils in full humbucker mode... Again, it will transform the guitar..

Another pickup I would strongly consider would be a Steeltronics Z12 which is a replica of the old ZB triple coil tap pickups.. Believe me, over the decades so many MSA guitars were played with humbuckers, and then guys complained about the tone, and simply moved on to "better sounding" guitars.. The right pickup makes these guitars sing like they should.. If you don't want coil switching capability, fine, but I urge you to go with a single coil instead of a humbucker on an older MSA ... bob

[Dennis Detweiler]

Remove the A# on string 10 and remove the Bb on string 9. These removals will get you to standard 6th pulls. I have my Eb lowers (B6th tuning) on RKR which frees my left leg a little more to move around on the pedals 4, 5, 6, 7 and to hop in and out of both tunings more freely in the middle of a song. Also, the A and B pedals can be incorporated into the 6th tuning (all 7 floor pedals). The only other change that I made to the tuning is, I tune the 2nd string to C# and use a knee lever to pull it to D/D#. It's the equivalent of the D as first string on C6th.
I have two MSA's (1975 and 1976) Both maple body and neck. The Telonics X-12 pickup will get you close to an Emmons guitar tone. The Telonics 409 leans toward ShoBud. The X-12 may not be listed on the Telonics website but can be requested.
That pile of changer parts looks very familiar. When I bought the 1975, the changer was so gunked up with nicotine and grease, two of the fingers wouldn't move. You'll have respectable new guitar when you're finished with it.

[Patrick Timmins]

Thanks guys.
It looks like there are a lot of ideas of what a universal tuning is.
I'm still working on E9, so don't want to confuse myself too much with Uni. Also, was planning to rebuild this beauty to add to the population of playable Steel guitars in the Northwest.

As for the logic behind the copedent, I took the Danny Naccarato 6 pedal copedent



and added the A# from pedal 4 of the old Sierra copedent to pedal 6 since I don't think you would want to touch string 5 if you were playing pedal 4 of the sierra copedent since it would be a semitone up from the A#. and having an additional A# on pedal 6, string 10 shouldn't hurt. There is another G# on string 3.



This also preserves all the E9 changes. It also may be a terrible copedent idea....

I do want it to be a good instrument for somebody to play up here in the NW, but it mostly seems to be E9 around here. I convert a lot of U12s to Extended E9 for people who buy instruments on line up here. I think the relative lack of universal instruction availability may have a lot to do with that trend. If I really can't make a Uni with 6 pedals, I may just need to build it as another extended E9.

Also, it has the waffle pedals. Not sure how long it would take to find another to add the 7th pedal. I can manufacture/machine everything else.

Does anyone have an extra?



Looks like the adjustable tension spring kit is sold out.
Mike has been out of stock on a lot of stuff that last year or so. He's even out of the MSA bell cranks, so I will have to make my own.

Thanks!

[Dennis Detweiler]

Yes, to Naccarato tuning, but I'm not sure about pedal 4? It's missing part of the "boowah" as in pedal 8 on the chart below his.

[b0b]

As for the logic behind the copedent, I took the Danny Naccarato 6 pedal copedent

Danny gets the C6th P6 change on his LKR by releasing RKR when in "B6th mode".

[Dennis Detweiler]

B0b has the correct copedent.

[b0b]

B0b has the correct copedent.

I've never actually had an E9th/B6th, though. My approach has been D6th (10-string) with E9th pedalsand levers added. Johnny Cox's 12-string D13th is more like an extended E9th with C6th pedals added. We both avoid having to change keys when switching from "E9th mode" to "C6th (B6th) mode" by tuning the whole guitar midway between C and E. The G chord is at the 5th fret no matter what style of music you're playing.

But... you really do have to retrain you fingers and knees to use either approach (D6th or D13th). The big advantage of the E9/B6 tuning is that the top 8 strings are exactly what you already know from playing 10-string E9th. You don't have to relearn anything. Just put on your picks and play.

[Pete Burak]

I did away with the C-pedal on one of my Jeff Newman style Universals, and added string-4 E-to-F# to a lever.
That is maybe a possibility for a 6 pedal Uni.
If you have access to parts, maybe add a P7.

[edit]
I saw this Extened E9 5x5 Copedant.
Maybe something to consider:
[/quote]

[Dennis Detweiler]

45 years ago, before there was any accepted standard universal tuning, I played a D9th/D6th with 6 floor pedals. It was still missing enough of the standard C6th chord inversions and chords.I finally settled on Newman's universal and both standard D-10 necks came together into a universal 12. It all made more sense to me at that point. I could use the 10 string C6th tabs if stuck on a phrase or searching for a particular song or lick. Or, I could watch a C6th player and pick up his bar movement or pedals. Something like, Buddy's pocket tab lays the same on E9th/B6th. Standard D-10 vs standard U-12. Grips are the same.

[Patrick Timmins]

Thanks guys.

Sounds like I would have an incomplete universal with the limited parts on hand regardless of which copedent I go for. Looks like for it to be a sellable instrument, I will need to make it an Emmons style Extended E9 guitar. Going to get a steeltronics ZB pickup ordered for it today!

[Bob Carlucci]

Thanks guys.

Sounds like I would have an incomplete universal with the limited parts on hand regardless of which copedent I go for. Looks like for it to be a sellable instrument, I will need to make it an Emmons style Extended E9 guitar. Going to get a steeltronics ZB pickup ordered for it today!

Yay!.,, if I had that guitar thats the exact pickup I would order for it!

MSA parts a problem? Shouldn't be.. I bet you could get what you need for it from Mike Yahl, Jim Palenscar, or even the members here if you made a few inquiries.. There were tons of those MSA/Micro guitars built, lots of stuff out there, and I am certain everything is available...bob

[Jerry Overstreet]

Those are pretty nice guitars and still pretty popular, I think.

Your deal, but I believe I'd try to set it up in the 7 pedal Jeff Newman E9/B6 style. Should at least one pedal cross shaft in position 7 or 8 in the body if it was an original "The Universal". Seems a shame to make an extended 12 out of it, but your decision.

Another idea is put the standard ABC or CBA E9th pedals on the first 3 pedals, then the standard C6 pedals [except put the boo wah pedal on 4 a la Jeff], 5 and 6 and the common 7th pedal pulls on one of those KLs. That way you wouldn't have to have another pedal.

I'd have to sit down an write out a configuration, but I'm sure it can be done that way.

Problems might be lack of enough proper length pull rods if they've been hacked for another setup. Appears to be enough or nearly enough bell cranks existing there.

Good luck.

[Patrick Timmins]

Not sure what the previous owner did, but it was a really weird setup (above in the first post).
All the pull rods were aluminum on this. I'm changing over to stainless steel so will make all new pull rods. Michael Yahl has been out of lots of parts for a while. I can make just about any machined part, but those cast foot pedals might be tough to source.

[Jerry Overstreet]

viewtopic.php?t=386299

Here's a link for some bell cranks if you are interested. I bet someone here has a pedal assembly too.

[Patrick Timmins]

Thanks Jerry.
Looks like I got back to the computer a little too late. That's a good price for that collection of parts. Easily cheaper than the time it would cost me to make them.