Too tall for playing pedal steel?

[Jim Shultz]

Sorry for a long post. First post, very newbie to pedal steel.

I recently retired to Upstate SC (Seneca / Clemson) and have always thought PSG was a great instrument. I had played guitar, 12 string and Tele, for many years but set them aside as family took up most of my time. At the moment, I know of no other PSG players nearby and had only touched a pedal steel maybe 40 years ago. The E9 tuning was mysterious to me even then. They guy who had it didn't really play it so he was no help in understanding it.

So, I took the plunge and bought a Sho-Bud Maverick (I know, I know) from a guy within driving distance in Georgia, knowing if it worked out I would probably want a better guitar later.

I have a very old Peavey Duece II from my telecaster days that I can plug it into. Bought the Winston book and have been trying to work with it. The resources on the internet have been amazing. I have a pretty good ear and rudimentary theory knowledge so I think I will be OK going forward.

Here is the biggest problem. I'm 6'4" tall with long legs (37" inseam). When seated with my feet on the ground, my thighs touch the bottom of the body of the guitar. It's impossible to put my right foot on a volume pedal and work it or the one knee pedal without lifting up the steel body with my thigh. Working the pedals is almost OK, but if I had knee levers on the left knee it would be problematic. I have considered making longer legs for the cabinet, and longer rods for the pedals, but wanted to know:

1) Are all pedal steels this height? Mine is 26" from the floor to the bottom of the cabinet.
2) If not, are some made so they are adjustable?
3) If not, is a custom build going to be necessary?

I bought the Maverick to "test the waters" without having a music shop within reasonable distance where I could try other models.

It's hard enough to get my old body to get used to using both hands, finger picks, both feet and at least for now one knee all simultaneously. But fighting physical difficulties due to long legs makes it really frustrating.

If my body size is going to make this an insurmountable problem, I would like to hear some thoughts on this and I won't spend my time trying to find a local player/teacher who might be able to help.

Suggestions, thoughts and sympathy accepted.

Jim

[Danny Letz]

I'm not familiar exactly with how a Maverick is configured but most steels can be raised with a lift kit which includes pedal rod extenders and sleeves that go between the pedal bar and tightning gland on the leg. Some guitars are more complicated. Also guitars can be ordered with longer legs and pedal rods. So don't give up. Someone on here will know how to raise yours or if not, you can find one that can be raised. A couple of years back, the Navy Country band played at the Texas show. The steel player was 6-7. His Mullen was raised 3 inches. If he can get fixed up, so can you.

[Dave Mudgett]

I had the same exact problem when I started - same height, same long leg issue. I could not cram my legs under the steel without putting the seat so low that it seriously cramped my legs. Some people here will tell you to just suck it up and deal with it. They're wrong, IMHO. Trying to do this stunted my playing development heavily until I found a solution.

The typical solution is to install what is known as a lift kit, and raise the seat higher than normal. A lift kit typically consists of two things, assuming you can extend the legs:

1. For each pedal rod, a male-female standoff, or a female-female standoff with a set screw - these couple to the pedal rods to extend their length.

2. Metal tubing to act as a collar to prevent the extended legs from collapsing under the pressure of pressing the pedals.

There are lots of threads on this, I've replied to many - if you do a forum search for lift kit with my name as author, you will find a bunch of them. Here are a few:

viewtopic.php?t=359438

viewtopic.php?t=357833

viewtopic.php?t=216553

and a thread on seat height

viewtopic.php?t=359438

That ought to get you started. But you have a slightly different issue with the legs on your Maverick - I've never seen one with adjustable legs. So unless someone installed adjustable legs on yours, you're going to have to either:

1. Get some adjustable legs - they are available - or

2. Take a different approach to raising the legs. It would require some type of insert, either at the top, or at the bottom of your legs. But it is, in principle, possible to lengthen the legs.

The best approach, at least on the front legs, would be to add length at the top, but that would imply a spacer with a female part to screw into each of the legs, and then a male part to screw into the female receptacle on the steel itself. That way, the holes for the pedal bar bolts are automatically in the right place.

On the other hand, it is in principle possible to fit something - probably ideally metal tubing but something else like tapered dowel should work - at the bottom and simply drill the holes for the pedal board bolts in the right place.

I started on an Emmons student model without adjustable legs. I tapered some wood dowel to make bottom inserts. It worked tolerably for a while, but never really felt great to me. In the end, I got rid of that steel and got a better one with adjustable legs and then I could proceed to focus on learning how to actually play this contraption.

I know it's a total pain to think about jettisoning the steel you just bought, but for me, that was the better approach. I think a 3-pedal, 1-knee Maverick is marginal as a pedal steel anyway, and if you didn't overpay for it, you should be able to get your money out of it.

If I was starting again and didn't want to spend a boat load on a steel, I'd look seriously at the Justice S10 Jr - http://www.justicesteelguitars.com/S10%20Jr.html

It looks like it has at least somewhat adjustable legs, but I'd talk with either Ron or Fred to see what they can do for you. I confess I've not yet played one of these yet, but they look pretty durned nice for the money. Kevin Maul talks about his here - viewtopic.php?p=2945785

[Butch Mullen]

Jim, I have 2 Mavericks. I would experiment with some blocks or maybe some short pvc pipe extensions to get the length you need. They don't have threaded ends so any 7/8" pipe will work. That will get you started. Then you will have to extend your pedal rods. Where in SC are you? Butch in NC

[James Sission]

I'm 6' 4 also. I raise my guitars one inch. Jim Palenscar sells lift kits. I also get my pedals modified for my feet. But that's a different story. Email Jim at pally1 at gmail.com.

[Jim Shultz]

Thanks to all who have replied! I have spent some time looking through the links and glad to see I am not the only one who has had this issue. It looks like there is hope for modifying the instrument without too much trouble.

Now if I can only get the hang of actually playing the thing...

[James Sission]

Thanks to all who have replied! I have spent some time looking through the links and glad to see I am not the only one who has had this issue. It looks like there is hope for modifying the instrument without too much trouble.

Now if I can only get the hang of actually playing the thing...

Here, watch this since you play 6 string.

https://youtu.be/yKM2DwOwoHk

[Fred Treece]

Dave M. briefly mentioned seat height and offered a link to a discussion on it. Don’t underestimate the importance. Get an adjustable height keyboard bench or drum stool to start. Once you find your ideal height, then you could consider a pricey custom steel seat.
Also, get a low-profile (tapered) volume pedal. Your right ankle will thank you.
I’m 6’3, btw. 36” legs.

[Ron Pruter]

Jim, for what it's worth. The better Sho bud steel guitars had legs made from cut off Atlas mic stands. So if you have four old mic stands, you're ready to hit the road. The threaded hexagonal (10/32) spacers to lengthen the pedal rods can be found at the Home Depot. Wrap them in chrome-like duct tape and they look great. If you should become very serious about PSG, you probably won't have that Mav. very long so don't put too much $ into it. Have fun. Ron

[Gene Tani]

FWIW, i play with volume pedal outside and forward of pedal bar, it's a little more comfortable for my Achilles tendon which i suppose is not very flexible anymore.

Also another member asked for pix of how adjustable leg clutches work, I have those here (along with photo of hte front leg spacers that go above pedal bar

viewtopic.php?t=361838

[Dave Stroud]

I'm also 6' 4". Here's a list of height-related things I've learned since I started five years ago:

1. Longer steel guitar legs. I had mine made here: http://steelguitarparts.net/guitar/stee ... atalog.htm

If you don't want to buy longer legs, and your front legs are adjustable, then just buy some aluminum spacers to place between the pedal bar and the hand-tightening nut thing (can't think of what to call it). This will allow the legs to be longer, and the pedal bar won't creep up while pushing the pedals down. (The other Dave already mentioned this)

2. Pedal rod extenders. If you don't care about "shiny", get male-female hex threaded stand-offs like these: https://www.mcmaster.com/male-female-th ... standoffs/. Sho-pro have shiny ones.

3. If you have larger hands, don't mess around with a standard length bar, or even a "12 string" bar. It won't fit in your hand, and it will be difficult to hold the back end of it steady while moving it across the neck. BJS makes a 7/8" x 4 in bar. This is the longest bar ever made to my knowledge. It isn't listed on their website, but you can send Butch an email. https://www.bjsbars.com/contact.html

4. I believe a standard height volume pedal is better for longer legs than a low-profile one. I studied and tested out both extensively, and I found that the pivot point on the standard one is better for my long legs. The standard height pedal is easier to maintain a comfortable ankle angle in the "sound-off" position.

5. Seat height is important. Most chairs were too low for me when I started. I remember sitting on a stack of textbooks while my steel seat was made.

6. The front legs of your guitar stick out at about a 10 degree angle. I've found that it's necessary to make a bracket that ties into the legs and puts the pedal bar further away from the guitar. This will bring the guitar closer to your hands and knees while giving your legs room to sit naturally.

Most of these things I had to figure out on my own... I also have long legs, but not as long as yours. I would definitely look into #6.

[James Sission]

4. I believe a standard height volume pedal is better for longer legs than a low-profile one. I studied and tested out both extensively, and I found that the pivot point on the standard one is better for my long legs. The standard height pedal is easier to maintain a comfortable ankle angle in the "sound-off" position.

As odd as that sounds, I totally agree. I've experimented with every pedal except a Telonics (I cant afford one) and I have concluded that a standard pedal is better for me as long as the guitar is raise. I also ended up picking the Hilton as my choice because I can set the "cut-off" point on the sweep. Just something to think about.

[James Sission]

6. The front legs of your guitar stick out at about a 10 degree angle. I've found that it's necessary to make a bracket that ties into the legs and puts the pedal bar further away from the guitar. This will bring the guitar closer to your hands and knees while giving your legs room to sit naturally.

I would really like to see a picture of that. PM sent.

[Richard Sinkler]

4. I believe a standard height volume pedal is better for longer legs than a low-profile one. I studied and tested out both extensively, and I found that the pivot point on the standard one is better for my long legs. The standard height pedal is easier to maintain a comfortable ankle angle in the "sound-off" position.

As odd as that sounds, I totally agree. I've experimented with every pedal except a Telonics (I cant afford one) and I have concluded that a standard pedal is better for me as long as the guitar is raise. I also ended up picking the Hilton as my choice because I can set the "cut-off" point on the sweep. Just something to think about.

That can be done with pot pedals too. I've done it several times. Loosen the pulley on the pot, adjust the pot to where it won't shut off when the pedal is pulled back, and retightening the pulley. You just have to make sure the pot doesn't reach the end of it's travel before the pedal is full on. If that happens, you can destroy the pot.

[James Sission]

I'd rather flip it over and make a quick adjustment with a screwdriver than have to take the pedal apart. But that's just me, I like to keep things simple.

[Dave Hopping]

Thanks to all who have replied! I have spent some time looking through the links and glad to see I am not the only one who has had this issue. It looks like there is hope for modifying the instrument without too much trouble.

Now if I can only get the hang of actually playing the thing...

Jim,once you get the ergonomics right, you'll feel as if you're wearing your steel as much as playing it.It'll make all six points of interaction(two hands+ 2 knees+ 2 feet) come together, and then the fun begins!

[Richard Sinkler]

I'd rather flip it over and make a quick adjustment with a screwdriver than have to take the pedal apart. But that's just me, I like to keep things simple.

Me too. I use a Hilton.

[Fred Treece]

4. I believe a standard height volume pedal is better for longer legs than a low-profile one. I studied and tested out both extensively, and I found that the pivot point on the standard one is better for my long legs. The standard height pedal is easier to maintain a comfortable ankle angle in the "sound-off" position.

As odd as that sounds, I totally agree. I've experimented with every pedal except a Telonics (I cant afford one) and I have concluded that a standard pedal is better for me as long as the guitar is raise. I also ended up picking the Hilton as my choice because I can set the "cut-off" point on the sweep. Just something to think about.

The low profile VP is perfect for me, probably because I wear boots. Maybe standard height works for flat shoe players. It’s just way too high and puts the ankle at an uncomfortable “off position” angle for me.

[James Sission]

Jim,once you get the ergonomics right, you'll feel as if you're wearing your steel as much as playing it.It'll make all six points of interaction(two hands+ 2 knees+ 2 feet) come together, and then the fun begins![/quote]

This is VERY true. I struggled even with guitars that were raised. I seemed to always have problems with the pedals. Then I played a Mullen that was raised one inch and it was a completely different story. That's when I discovered Mullen pedals are 4 inches long which is longer than any guitar I had ever played before. So I now have a Williams that Bill modified the pedals on and an Infinity that Frank modified the pedals on. I can play both of those guitar without having to raise my foot to change pedal position. A good fitting guitar makes a world of difference. I also keep a set of modified LeGrade pedals on hand in case I buy another some day.

[Dave Stroud]

4. I believe a standard height volume pedal is better for longer legs than a low-profile one. I studied and tested out both extensively, and I found that the pivot point on the standard one is better for my long legs. The standard height pedal is easier to maintain a comfortable ankle angle in the "sound-off" position.

As odd as that sounds, I totally agree. I've experimented with every pedal except a Telonics (I cant afford one) and I have concluded that a standard pedal is better for me as long as the guitar is raise. I also ended up picking the Hilton as my choice because I can set the "cut-off" point on the sweep. Just something to think about.

The low profile VP is perfect for me, probably because I wear boots. Maybe standard height works for flat shoe players. It’s just way too high and puts the ankle at an uncomfortable “off position” angle for me.

I forgot about this consideration, I think you're exactly right. For me, the boot heel filled an extra space that made the low profile VP more comfortable in that situation.

[James Sission]

I normally play in moccasins or socks. Sometime I play in Roper boots which are not pointed toe boots and have a low heel. But like everything else related to steel, what works for one guy may not work for the next guy. Jeff Newman played in those awful pointed toe drug store cowboy boots and he seemed to do just fine.

[Dave Stroud]

Jim,once you get the ergonomics right, you'll feel as if you're wearing your steel as much as playing it.It'll make all six points of interaction(two hands+ 2 knees+ 2 feet) come together, and then the fun begins!

This is VERY true. I struggled even with guitars that were raised. I seemed to always have problems with the pedals. Then I played a Mullen that was raised one inch and it was a completely different story. That's when I discovered Mullen pedals are 4 inches long which is longer than any guitar I had ever played before. So I now have a Williams that Bill modified the pedals on and an Infinity that Frank modified the pedals on. I can play both of those guitar without having to raise my foot to change pedal position. A good fitting guitar makes a world of difference. I also keep a set of modified LeGrade pedals on hand in case I buy another some day.[/quote]

James, I assume you're talking about 4 inches of 'effective' pedal length, right? Measuring from the rod connection to the end of the pedal?

My Franklin pedals measure 3 9/16" in that dimension... I wonder if lengthening the pedals in addition to moving the pedal bar out would be a good idea. What are your thoughts on this?

[James Sission]

Yes, that's the measurements I am referring to. It's actually more common of an issue than a lot of people realize. You can always take a paint stir stick and trim it down to your pedal width. Then tape it to the bottom of the pedal and trim the length to where you think it would benefit you best. If your comfort level is improved, then you would likely benefit from longer pedals. I had a regular machine shop modify my Emmons pedals.

[James Sission]

Dave. I have posted this elsewhere but I thought I would post it for you here. These are the Emmons pedals, one of which I had modified at what I thought was a reasonable price. As you can see in the picture, the connecting rod location did not change so the pedal rod angle stayed the same and they are easier to activate as well. I was surprised to find that several builders I spoke to can not or would not do this modification if I ordered a new guitar. I am not sure why as it was cheap, fast and according to the machinist that did it, it was easy.

To your question about moving the pedal bar, I would need to see that to be able to speak to that modification. I am sorry, but I can not picture that mod in my head to grasp the full concept. That sounds to me like your going to be changing the angle of the pedal rod and I would need to see that the determine the effect that would have on the pull distance and pressure needed to make the pull. I can tell you that one builder told me that my longer pedals would make the pull stiffer, which I knew was wrong when he made that statement, so a lot of these type things you really need to just experiment with and see what works for you.