Emmons on eBay

Cartwright Thompson · Post by **Cartwright Thompson** » 25 Dec 2006 4:48 am

Just trying to increase my push/pull knowledge. I know nothing about the seller.
What is this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Emmons-Steel-Guitar-With-Pedals-Hardshell-Case-Slide_W0QQitemZ110070195367QQihZ001QQcategoryZ621QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Mike Kowalik · Post by **Mike Kowalik** » 25 Dec 2006 6:18 am

This appears to be a ingle neck 10 string push pull with a bolt-on changer and has had a homemade knee lever added.I'm not sure if it would have come with a knee lever from the factory......I know someone that has a D-10 bolt-on that came with 2 knees from the factory.....it now has 2 additional knees and a vertical and is a killer guitar.This guitar on eBay might be a good project guitar if a capable push pull guru like Mike Cass or Jerry Roller could fix it up.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 25 Dec 2006 7:59 am

It's definitely a "project" guitar. Some things I've noticed are:

Originally came with 6 foot pedals, now only has 3 pedals and 3 cross shafts...

Missing top aluminum trim strip should be replaced...

Entire knee lever assembly is totally unoriginal and should be discarded.

It could be made into an acceptable 3/4 guitar reasonably if someone had the parts, or wanted to spend about 800-1000 to have an professional Emmons restorer do it.

Just MHO.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 25 Dec 2006 10:02 am

If anything, I think it would be worth $800 to turn it into a 10-string nonpedal.

Al

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 25 Dec 2006 10:17 am

I would like to have that guitar. I sold one like it that I wish I still had. But, the one I sold had 4 genuine Emmons levers.
Jerry[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 25 December 2006 at 10:23 AM.][This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 25 December 2006 at 11:54 AM.]

Dave Diehl · Post by **Dave Diehl** » 25 Dec 2006 2:59 pm

Anyone know why the move recently to cover part of the Serial Number on guitars offered for sale (as this one)? They claim "for security reasons" but I fail to see why.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 25 Dec 2006 3:08 pm

Yeah, I thought that was strange as well.

Where's our legal eagles?

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 25 Dec 2006 3:13 pm

I wondered too. My rough guess--so that a counterfeiter (happens all the time on ebay with people stealing photos and holding fake auctions) won't be able to answer the question "what are the missing numbers". In other words, if challenged "will the real seller of this guitar please stand up", only one person will be able to complete the question "what are the last two numbers?"

Dave Diehl · Post by **Dave Diehl** » 26 Dec 2006 3:31 am

I have seen that in a couple of instances lately. I sent the seller a question asking why but never got an answer.

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 26 Dec 2006 6:41 am

Yeow, that sold for quite a bit! I only paid
a few hundred more for a D-10 bolt on about
5 years ago....and it was near mint & untouched underneath.

Mike Kowalik · Post by **Mike Kowalik** » 26 Dec 2006 7:25 am

I think the buyer paid too much.....if they would have bought the great sounding S-10 that is now for sale here on The Forum for $2200 they would have gotten a great deal!!

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 26 Dec 2006 10:02 am

Careful Jay, would you sell that bolt-on for double what you paid for it? Is it possible that a bolt-on has become harder to come by? I think the buyer paid plenty but if he wanted the guitar I don't think it will hurt very long.
Jerry

Dave Diehl · Post by **Dave Diehl** » 26 Dec 2006 3:54 pm

Jerry is right.... the "value" of something is "what someone is willing to pay for it".

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 26 Dec 2006 4:02 pm

Dave, I think the actual "value" of something, that being what you could sell it for, is worth what more than two people are willing to pay for it.

If a trashed out S10 Emmons reaches 1500 because a whole bunch of people got close to that figure, I'd say it was a representative price. But if two fools keep up a bidding war between themselves when everyone else dropped out at 900, I'd say 900 was closer to the actual value the next guitar would bring.

Like Johnstone says, if you win an auction, it's because you were willing to pay more than anyone else was for that puppy.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 26 Dec 2006 5:13 pm

I was in the insurance business for 34 years 10 as an adjuster and 24 as an agent and ACV meaning actual cash value is the amount a willing buyer is willing to pay and a willing seller is willing to accept. This is the formula insurance companies use in determining the value of an item. I know identity of this buyer though he lives several hundred miles from me but I know he is an intelligent successful business owner who would not allow himself to get into anything foolish. I personally feel that there is a great deal of difference in the value of a bolt-on push pull and a cut tail.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 26 Dec 2006 5:59 pm

Most of the time people pay too much for an item on Ebay anyway ...They get caught up in bidding ...They see a lot of people bid on something , and they think that it's really extra special because so many people want it .. Ebay is a good place to sell , not to buy except for the fact that there may be something that you can't find anywhere else, in which case, you're gonna pay top $$ for it on Ebay ...Jim

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 26 Dec 2006 10:05 pm

I don't normally have anything to say on these kind of threads, but I do think that $1550.00 (with the shipping) for that guitar in that shape is kind of steep.
No dealer that I know of would put that guitar out on the floor at that kind of price, you would think that they were crazy if they did. Condition does matter... and a dealer to back up the guitar matters too.
Ebay has a way of setting benchmark prices that would not hold up in the real world where you can actually inspect items..... and consider what the real price of that guitar is going to be.

To be a working guitar, that bolt-on is going to need at least 4 knee levers added at something like $150.00 per lever. I know that most of the good set-up guys charge in the range of $500.00 per neck to do a complete PP setup. Then there are the cosmetic issues with that axe as well... maybe another couple hundred there. So I think that it is not too far of a stretch to see another $1200.00 minimum going into that guitar.
You can find a nice S-10 bolt-on for less than $2750.00... and more collectable because you can find one with all original parts. If PSGs ever become collectable in the same way that 6 strings are, those original parts make a big difference.

John Kalament · Post by **John Kalament** » 27 Dec 2006 7:22 pm

I have been following this thread for the last few day's and I can't believe some of the statement's you guy's are making concerning the price paid for the guitar. It's nice to know that all you guy's have never spent a little extra money on something you really wanted. Have any of you wheeler Dealer's ever purchased a new car and tried to sell it a week later ? I'm sure your loss would be in the thousands. Did it ever occur to you guy's that perhaps the buyer already has the knee levers and necessary part's to upgrade this guitar ? Have any of you ever taken a moment to think that the buyer might be a forum member? Isn't this forum designed to help other steeler's out instead of trying to ridicule them. Wouldn't it be nice if all you guy's who posted negative comment's about the buyer used your energy to try to help this person find the needed parts ? All I see here are two people who were interested in the guitar and bid on it.

Herb Steiner,

I have purchased a least three of your guitar courses over the last year and I think you do a great job on all your material. Last year I felt honored to meet you and shake your hand at the convention in Dallas. I even purchased your Johnny Bush Intro's course. I alway's admired the knowledge you share with other forum member's on Emmons guitars. What bother's me is how you were so quick to call the bidders on this guitar a couple of fool's without knowing anything about them. Very poor judgment on your part Herb. Not everyone is blessed with your experience and expertise on Emmons guitar's. I have seen your post's many time's on the forum offering help to fellow steeler's in need of information but was very surprised when you depicted these bidder's as fool's. Come on Herb, totally out of character for a man of your integrity.

Jerry Roller, A class act guy !!!

Jerry took this topic as a true professional. Never once making any derogatory statement's concerning the price paid or the integrity of the buyer. As he stated, if the buyer's are truly interested in the item it is up to them to decide on how much they decide to pay. I had Jerry do some work on my Emmons a few year's ago and he did a great job on it. IMO I think all of you guy's should have taken Jerry's approach on this issue and cut the buyer a little slack.

As fellow steeler's let's try to help each other out in time's of need and use our knowledge and understanding of this difficult instrument to help others.
John

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 27 Dec 2006 10:04 pm

John
You are correct and I admit that my use of the word "fool" was inconsiderate, and for that you and the bidders have my sincere apologies. I don't usually leap to conclusions like that. Mea culpa.

If the man is happy with his purchase, so be it and let not my momentary rudeness rain on his parade.

BTW, I didn't mention anything to my knowledge about the integrity of the buyer, only the wisdom of the purchase.

Other than the implication the purchase was IMHO ill-advised, I stand by what I wrote. I did mention in my first post that: 1. if the buyer has the parts and/or the ability to install them, the guitar could be made whole reasonably; 2. I pointed out that there are many parts missing from this guitar and that is also the truth; and 3. as Mike Nolan concurred, the cost to make this guitar whole, if the parts had to be located and assembled by an Emmons specialist, would add considerably to its final cost to the owner.

Personally, I wouldn't have made the deal, but that's me and my value judgement on the transaction.

That said, if the owner did have to put another 1500 into the guitar, he would still have an S-10 bolton for around 3K. There are new S-10s at prices close to that, without the cachet of an old Emmons. So I hope this old horn gets restored correctly and its value increases accordingly.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 27 December 2006 at 10:08 PM.]

John Kalament · Post by **John Kalament** » 28 Dec 2006 6:06 am

Dear Herb,

Thank you very much for your quick response to my post and your apology. I am sorry I was a little harsh on you and you are correct in the content of your first post on this subject. Keep up the great work you do on your material and I will re introduce myself to you when I get to AZ in Jan.
See you then !
John

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 28 Dec 2006 7:04 am

That dumb link has made this thread so wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide on screen... it's so aggravating to scroll back and forth constantly to try to read it... can I do something here to fix it, or is it a global issue?

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Mikey D...

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 28 Dec 2006 8:59 am

Yeah, I've done this myself when posting a link...and it sure is a pain. Then, someone suggested clicking on "edit" above the post that had a link, or "feature", that I'd like to imitate, to see how it should be done. I did, and by god, I learned something!!

Now I can do some neat stuff in my posts!!

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 30 Dec 2006 5:15 pm

What Herb said...... an OK deal if you know what you're getting.... or what you are getting into.

I do all of the pedal steel repair and setup work for a local guitar shop in Williamsburg, Brooklyn..... Main Drag Music. We see alot of ebay specials. I just hate to see new players buy something in really rough condition from ebay and then have to spend a lot more to make it playable. It is frustrating for them as new players and often they don't really have the money to get the axe fixed..... I want new young players to get into it, so it is a good thing if they see threads like this and get some help before they buy.

I spent 6 hours on a D-10 PP today.....ebay and way out of adjustment, basically a really heavy D-10 non pedal.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 30 Dec 2006 11:09 pm

Like others have said above, the buyer has to figure in another $800 or so for a good PSG repairman to add knee levers. Working on a push/pull is very difficult and any change in pedals or knee levers takes Hours to do. You can't just move one bell crank or one cross-shaft. You have to loosen and move several things to make one change. Everything is a major job. This guitar needs 4, possibly 5 knee levers. And where do the parts come from? Either the repairman has to machine them himself or order the parts from somewhere... either option is Expensive!

I bought a S-10 Emmons p/p a couple of years ago for $800, and I thought I got a great deal. The guitar had 6 pedals and No knee levers. I quickly realized that the guitar was useless to me without levers, and I ended up putting a lot of money into that guitar.

The buyer of the guitar in this post spent $1510 including shipping. If he wants to play standard E9 tuning he needs to restore the 4 knee levers. That's another $700 to $800, Total: about $2200 to $2300. Then the guitar is whole again. Is it worth it? The guitar will probably will be worth that in a couple of years. I wouldn't sell my '72 Emmons S-10 for that!

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 31 Dec 2006 12:16 am

That dumb link has made this thread so wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide on screen... it's so aggravating

I don't think it's the link. I think it's the extra wide Avatar (picture under the name) in Jay Ganz post above... sorry Jay

That space is for a 100 pixels wide picture, and Jay's is 156 pixels wide.

If an Avatar is uploaded directly to the Forum server, the server will reject any images more than 100 pixels wide. But members may link to a picture on their server, which could be any size. The New Forum is a work in progress