Push/pull set-up frustration

Gabriel Stutz · Post by **Gabriel Stutz** » 20 Dec 2006 1:41 pm

Okay, so maybe it was a stupid thing to do, but I just took my push/pull apart, replaced some rods, cleaned it, and put it back together, but now I can't seem to get it set-up properly. I know how to tune the changer (I think), so I did that, but I can't seem to get my E-Eb set up with a short enough travel to allow my C pedal E-F# to make pitch. I can't figure out what to do. I know this has probably been covered, but is there an obvious fix to this problem, some way to make that E-Eb more efficient so I can get the clearance for the C pedal? I did it once, but I can't seem to duplicate my results.

The next problem is that things seem to be returning sharp after lowering a string. Is this hysteresis, or is there a mechanical problem I need to resolve. If it's mechanical, what do I do.

This is driving me nuts, because it's a great sounding steel, and now I can't play it at gigs because I just can't count on it. I welcome any and all suggestions. I really want to learn how to do this myself.

Thanks all,

Gabriel[This message was edited by Gabriel Stutz on 20 December 2006 at 01:46 PM.]

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 20 Dec 2006 2:27 pm

Gabriel,
Assuming that you have the changer in tune:
Turn the steel upside down in the case.
Slacken the collars that raise the 4th string (C pedal +F lever)
Operate the lever that lowers the 4th, and hold it there whilst repositioning the raise collars, so that they are just clear of their bellcranks/1/2 tone tuning screw (see picture)

Gabriel Stutz · Post by **Gabriel Stutz** » 20 Dec 2006 2:34 pm

Richard,

Thanks. I'm not sure if it matters or not, but I don't have a half tone tuner on my E-Eb lower. It's the only lower on that string. I do have a half tone tuner on that rod for my E-F raise. I'll check it out when I get home and see if it's in the way.

Thanks for the idea. Any other suggestions are still more than welcome.

Gabriel

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm

Gabriel, if I may... http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 20 Dec 2006 6:25 pm

Gabriel,

First get the changer in tune. The trick is to have enough slack in the system to let the 4th string lower and raise work without interfering with each other.
Look at this:

The collar circled in red is on the 4th string 3rd pedal.... This is with no pedal or lever engaged. Notice the space between the collar and the bellcrank. That space is about the width of your tuning allen wrench.

Now look at this:

This is the same collar with the 4th string lower.... when fully lowered it should almost touch the bellcrank but be just a hair short of touching... the bellcrank should not move.

Now:

This is the same collar with the 4th string raised 1/2 step (E to F)

after you get these working you will have to set the C pedal travel with the pedal stop screw.

email me if this isn't clear.

As far as the guitar not returning to pitch.... could be a sticky roller nut, or not enough tension on the return springs.[This message was edited by mike nolan on 20 December 2006 at 06:28 PM.][This message was edited by mike nolan on 20 December 2006 at 06:33 PM.]

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 20 Dec 2006 8:16 pm

Mike I understand the tuning part.But how the heck do you keep it so clean?

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 20 Dec 2006 8:45 pm

Bobby,

I just rebuilt this one from the ground up about two months ago..... It'll get good and grungy before I do it again!

Gabriel Stutz · Post by **Gabriel Stutz** » 21 Dec 2006 11:59 am

Mike and all,

Thanks for the help. I understand that I need the play in the C pedal raise to allow the lower to make its full travel, but the thing I can't figure out at this point is why I need sooooo much travel on the C pedal. I almost have to remove the pedal stop screw to get my E-F# C pedal change to make it all the way up, and it barely makes it. I've unscrewed it so far at this point that it hits the little screw eye thing that holds the B pedal return spring in place. This seems abnormal, as in all of the pictures I've seen posted it looks like the the C pedal stop is adjusted for much less travel than I seem to be able to get away with.

Note to Richard: it wasn't my half-stop collar that was causing the problem, I loosened it completely and still no luck, but it sure sounded like a good idea.

Hopefully, I'm slowly starting make my problem clearer for you guys. I might not be communicating this very well, but I'm trying. This thing is much more mysterious than I thought....

Thanks everybody,

Gabriel[This message was edited by Gabriel Stutz on 21 December 2006 at 11:59 AM.]

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 21 Dec 2006 12:16 pm

Gabriel,

Sounds like you need to get that Emmons in for a check up with Jerry "Muttonhead" Erickson. he works at Corson Music in Champaign. Sounds like a drive from the City, but you will be GLAD you did it.

He is the closest mechanical expert on PP guitars near you..unless TC wants to chime in with some assistance. I know he has one too.

E Mail me and I will give you his number or e mal - - instead of posting it here.

Good Luck!!!!

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 21 Dec 2006 12:19 pm

Gabriel,
Is it possible that you accidentally used a different, lighter gauge string on the 4th? I use .014 on the 4th and I notice that many PP players do too. The lighter the string, the longer the pull....

Gabriel Stutz · Post by **Gabriel Stutz** » 21 Dec 2006 12:31 pm

Tim, I got an email from Jerry, and I may wind up getting to him, we shall see.

Mike, I had a .14 gauge on there and had the same thought you did, so I put a .15 on it and it did not help....at least not enough.

Gabriel

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 21 Dec 2006 12:59 pm

If you're attaching the wire loopy thingy to the last hole in the changer finger, that could be your problem .. try the second or third hole.. i.e. the one NEAREST the axle..

------------------

Gabriel Stutz · Post by **Gabriel Stutz** » 21 Dec 2006 1:23 pm

Basilh,

I'll try the 3rd, as it's in the 2nd. I should say was in the second until I broke the wire hook trying to bend it, now I'll be replacing that, too, as soon as I see a little wire flag in the ground, as recommended by Bobbe... We'll see what happens. I didn't know it was kosher to use that 3rd hole, I thought is was for somekind of half stop tension spring or something. It just might work....

Gabriel

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 21 Dec 2006 1:40 pm

It WILL work.. The extra leverage will be minimal but the required distance will be less. Trust me I'm a (Whatever)

A piece of 1/16" Stainless wire will do the job.
BTW.. Sometimes ANY hole is better than none !

Gabriel Stutz · Post by **Gabriel Stutz** » 21 Dec 2006 1:52 pm

Okay, I'll get it taken care of. I really appreciate everyone's help. If all else fails, I'll get in touch with Jerry...

Gabriel

Bob Watson · Post by **Bob Watson** » 21 Dec 2006 9:40 pm

Gabriel, I bought a P/P awhile back and had Jerry change the knee levers around for me and basically check it out. He does great work.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 21 Dec 2006 10:48 pm

Reminds me why I prefer an all pull guitar. I never could get any of my p/p's perfect. I had the same problem with the C pedal and KL that lowers 4th string. I think it's about having the right amount of slack on the pull rods. But man, that's a job trying to get that done. P/P is a great guitar once you get it right. Good luck!

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 22 Dec 2006 1:49 pm

As every one has an opinion here is mine.Almost 40 years ago i was using a ZB on the road.I took it in for a ring and vavle job and was loaned a black PP Emmons.Yes,a black PP.This was long before the internet and to me it was just another steel except trying to keep it in tune.The female singer i was working for at the time thought it was ugly.
I was so happy when i got rid of that thing and got my ZB back.Later i got a MSA and used it for over 30 years.And yes i knew how to work uner the hood of any steel.
So as we all know what opinions are like. Buy what you like and not the what so many put out.Not putting any steel down but i really believe many players hear what they want to hear. IMHO
Oh yeah.How i could tell when a string was going bad if tuned at the end near the nut a bad string would note a little flat above the 12th fret.Maybe some don't notice this.It was long before tuners.All that mattered back then was for the band to be in tune with each other.

Gabriel Stutz · Post by **Gabriel Stutz** » 26 Dec 2006 8:02 am

Everyone,

Too many people offered help to name them all, but I just wanted to thank you all for the huge amount of help you provided. I've got it functional now. I may still wind-up taking it in to a tech who can do this stuff in their sleep, but so far so good.

Tracy, I understand your opinion. I really wanted to try a push/pull because my teacher's sounded so good. I didn't really realize how much tinkering would be involved. I play my Dekley at gigs, and I love it.

Gabriel

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 26 Dec 2006 1:07 pm

Gabriel
You might want to consider Bobbe Seymour's video on maintaining the Emmons push pull guitar. http://www.steelguitar.net/

He knows as much as anyone does on these guitars